D&D 4E 4E, Healing, and Suspension of Disbelief

[silentounce]

From my own experience as a wrestler in high school I can say that during the match you are going at ten-tenths capacity - the match is at most 5 minutes of maximum exertion, and by the end of a full-length match you are wrung out and making mistakes. But a few minutes of rest and you're back up and ready to go.

Nothing against competitive wrestling, but in real life or death combat you don't have that luxury. 100% is required at all times. That's not to say that you are constantly on the attack.... Not that D&D should model that at all. Just sayin'.

 

[VannATLC]

You ever fought, silentounce? I mean, really fought, in inter-personal combat? (Not gunfights. I can't comment on them.)

I have, not for sport, or the army, but to save my hide. I've taken cuts to the arms and body from knives, and blows from fists and clubs. (I was a foolish teenager )

The 4e mechanics model all of that quite well. Its 1-shot, that gets through your defences, to take you out. You're healing surges are either physically restorative, trigger an adrenal rush, or model your own capacity to dig deeper, when needed. But you can only do it so often, and it really takes it out of you. But given a chance to rest, you can go back in.

I fought, once, with two broken fingers, and a cut to the bone on my right forearm (That had been bandaged.)

Whether that 1 shot is because you're slipping, and tired. (Extended PC/NPC Battle) Because you're totally outmatched (Minion vs PC/NPC) or because you've taken several beatings already (Out of surges.)

I, personally, feel that the whole system will fail badly when it comes to DnD Modern. Modelling a rifle shot is a lot harder.

The problem still exists with a crossbow, but the momentum, would, I imagine, be a lot higher.. at least from a rifle. Anyway. The end result is, the system is internally consistent.

 

[Regicide]

Wow, I just explained the unexplainable!

No, you just explained professional wrestling and dragonball Z. I'm not 5 years old, thats not a game I want to play.

-1 HP = bleeding to death. 1 HP = not bleeding to death. HP = wounds. How can you possibly think differently? Healing surges = nonsensical mechanic.

People hit people with swords in this game, or engulf them in bursts of fire. When they do, their HPs get reduced. You think being hit with a sword makes you more tired and not wounded? In children's cartoons they do. If I wanted the Naruto role-playing game, I'd have bought it instead of DnD.

 

[Gladius Legis]

No, you just explained professional wrestling and dragonball Z. I'm not 5 years old, thats not a game I want to play.

So you've basically blown by examples from people who have actually fought or compete in wrestling and martial arts. Since I'm a sensible person, I believe I'll take their words over yours any time.

-1 HP = bleeding to death. 1 HP = not bleeding to death. HP = wounds. How can you possibly think differently?

Because that's been D&D's model for 30 years? For that matter, that's been the model for pretty much all RPGs.

People hit people with swords in this game, or engulf them in bursts of fire. When they do, their HPs get reduced.

And they don't die. In real life, they probably would, or at the very least would be lying on the floor helpless. Congratuations, you've described just about every RPG in existence.

In children's cartoons they do. If I wanted the Naruto role-playing game, I'd have bought it instead of DnD.

Naruto = Godwin's Law variant. You invoke it, you lose.

 

[AntiPaladin]

LOL, that is some great trolling.

5 year old professional wrestling aside, if you read the comments carefully, nobody is refuting that going from 1HP to -1HP constitutes a physical injury. In my opinion, the far sillier notion is playing a game where people are being impaled and having limbs hacked off each time they take 1d6 damage. Good thing that magical healing is so convenient/realistic.

 

[Lurker37]

People hit people with swords in this game, or engulf them in bursts of fire. When they do, their HPs get reduced. You think being hit with a sword makes you more tired and not wounded?

No, I think you are getting worn down by the effort of dodging that sword blow so it's just a glancing blow, putting out the fire on your armour before your skin blisters etc. (BTW, if a character or monster was every engulfed in flames but was still able to fight, I had trouble imagining that. Did you?)

You're assuming that every attack that hits is hitting full on for full damage. That every sword strike impales or at least bites deep. That the target's skin burns and blackens from every fire spell. The whole point of the hit point system is, and always has been, that the target of these attacks is avoiding this, but that the effort is something you cannot sustain indefinitely. Eventually you'll be worn down by exhaustion and minor flesh wounds to the point that an opponent can bypass your defences and land a potentially fatal blow.

The problem has never been with the combat system - it was the wonky healing system that never managed to point out that hit point damage could mean superficial flesh wounds and fatigue. This left us with an impression of healing that was directly at odds with the descriptions of what hit points represented. As a result, people were asking how high level characters could barely survive a fight against a giant with a greataxe, and just sleep their injuries off in a week without any healing at all.

4E isn't changing the hit point rules at all. It's just bringing the healing rules into line with how hit points have always worked. It even has a mechanic to announce the first time you even score a visible hit on your foe - that you have drawn blood. At that point you've already worn through half their hit points.

Unfortunately it's a jarring transition for anyone who put more stock in heal spell descriptions that the actual text on what some game stats were meant to represent. That's a failure of previous editions - not this one.

 

[baberg]

No, you just explained professional wrestling and dragonball Z. I'm not 5 years old, thats not a game I want to play.

Well, I'm throwing up my hands. I've explained it and you refuse to accept my explanation while simultaneously calling me a 5-year-old. 4e is not the game for you, and until you can stop trying to rationalize every game mechanic, it will never be for you, which raises the question as to why you're on a 4e forum in the first place.

Have fun playing whatever RPG tickles your fancy. I'm done talking to you.

 

[CleverNickName]

Unfortunately it's a jarring transition for anyone who put more stock in heal spell descriptions that the actual text on what some game stats were meant to represent. That's a failure of previous editions - not this one.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to focus on those heal spell descriptions instead of the damage mechanics. I prefer it that way, actually.

 

[Jack Colby]

I've always believed, since the days of the Red Box Rules, that hit points were representative of the amount of damage someone (or something) could sustain before being destroyed. HP = Life Points = Health, whatever. 4E changed that, and now, HP are representative of an all-encompassing, physical/psychological condition that may or may not indicate actual damage, depending on the means by which it can be remedied.

You may have always believed that, but you were always wrong. HP have always represented what they do in 4E. People just ignored what the books defined them as. In other words: This is not 4E's fault, it's yours.

 

[CleverNickName]

You may have always believed that, but you were always wrong. HP have always represented what they do in 4E. People just ignored what the books defined them as. In other words: This is not 4E's fault, it's yours.

So I'm deliberately ignorant of the game mechanics, I am always wrong, and the answer to my problem is to change my beliefs? 4th Edition sounds better than ever!

You probably didn't mean for that to sound so harsh.