D&D General 4e Healing was the best D&D healing


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Because the stats remaining the same means the creature is what it is within the game world, as a natural and consistent part of the ecology of the setting.

The stats changing means the creature is merely a game piece and has no consistent connection with its environment.

Put another way, to maintain any sort of internal setting consistency the presence or absence of PCs in a scene should make no difference whatsoever to the stats etc. of anyone or anything else in that scene.
Oof. I reject that completely.

The creature is who and what they are regardless of the stats.
 

I disagree. I think all it means is that there are different ways to represent that creature, because reality is too complicated to model perfectly, therefore we must use abstractions.

I mean, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that every guard uses the same basic stat block from the MM. Tom the guard might be significantly smarter than his fellow guardsman, Steve. Unless Tom is actually relevant in some way, you probably won't bother to actually modify the stat block to reflect this. But if he becomes a relevant character for some reason (Tom was just another guard in a throwaway encounter on their way to break a friend out of jail, but they managed to convince Tom to join with the party) then suddenly he has depth and personality and an Int score that's several points higher than what a typical guard has.
This isn't nearly so much a problem, as it's easy to say that Tom was smart all along.

But once Tom's Int score gets locked in at 15 it stays there. His stats don't all change if he leaves the low-level party he just joined and meets a higher-level crew three days later (let's say they take him on as a hench) - he is what he is, and consistency is maintained.

But the Ogre's stats do change. If Tom's low-level party meet the Ogre, realize they can't kill it, and run from it; then Tom's higher-level party meet the same Ogre four days later it's the same Ogre and therefore should have exactly the same stats as when Tom met it the first time.

Put another way, a monster's stats serve a greater purpose than simply how it relates to the PCs: they represent in an abstract way how it relates to the entire setting, whether PCs are present or not.
 

Oof. I reject that completely.

The creature is who and what they are regardless of the stats.
The creature is always what it is, and its stats are a direct numerical reflection of that.

This is my whole point: the stats define the creature in numeric terms, such that it can be compared with lots of other things including but not limited to the PCs.

If it has 45 hit points max when the PCs are not around, it's a blatant inconsistency to say it has anything other than 45 hit points max when the PCs - of any level - are around.
 

The creature is always what it is, and its stats are a direct numerical reflection of that.

This is my whole point: the stats define the creature in numeric terms, such that it can be compared with lots of other things including but not limited to the PCs.

If it has 45 hit points max when the PCs are not around, it's a blatant inconsistency to say it has anything other than 45 hit points max when the PCs - of any level - are around.
Nope.
 

This isn't nearly so much a problem, as it's easy to say that Tom was smart all along.

But once Tom's Int score gets locked in at 15 it stays there. His stats don't all change if he leaves the low-level party he just joined and meets a higher-level crew three days later (let's say they take him on as a hench) - he is what he is, and consistency is maintained.

But the Ogre's stats do change. If Tom's low-level party meet the Ogre, realize they can't kill it, and run from it; then Tom's higher-level party meet the same Ogre four days later it's the same Ogre and therefore should have exactly the same stats as when Tom met it the first time.

Put another way, a monster's stats serve a greater purpose than simply how it relates to the PCs: they represent in an abstract way how it relates to the entire setting, whether PCs are present or not.
I would say that they represent how it relates to that encounter.

After all, had they fought Tom, he would have been just a regular old guard. It's only because they chose to negotiate with him (and the DM therefore needed to come up with a name and identity for him on the spot) that he becomes what we refer to as Tom.

Tom's stat block also "changed" to suit the needs of the game. Which is frankly fine, because it would be far stranger if every guard was actually a carbon copy clone in world.

The ogre against the low level party is full of swagger. Moments into this fight it is sure it can take these scrubs. It can take the fight nice and easy, toying with it's prey.

The ogre in against the high level party realizes rather quickly that it is desperately outmatched. It needs to give it's all simply to hurt them and avoid being hit.

The stat block can represent how it approaches and fights in those different encounters. The ogre boss has a lower to hit and defenses, but better damage (including some fancy moves) and hit points. The ogre minion has higher to hit and defenses, but has lower damage (and can't afford to try its tricks) and HP.
 

I would say that they represent how it relates to that encounter.

After all, had they fought Tom, he would have been just a regular old guard. It's only because they chose to negotiate with him (and the DM therefore needed to come up with a name and identity for him on the spot) that he becomes what we refer to as Tom.

Tom's stat block also "changed" to suit the needs of the game. Which is frankly fine, because it would be far stranger if every guard was actually a carbon copy clone in world.
There's a rather big difference, though, in the types of change here.

With Tom, we're talking about a change from nothing (or something undefined) to something defined. It's more a numerical development of what was in hindsight there all along; and once those numbers are defined they're locked in until-unless Tom gains or loses levels.

The ogre against the low level party is full of swagger. Moments into this fight it is sure it can take these scrubs. It can take the fight nice and easy, toying with it's prey.

The ogre in against the high level party realizes rather quickly that it is desperately outmatched. It needs to give it's all simply to hurt them and avoid being hit.

The stat block can represent how it approaches and fights in those different encounters. The ogre boss has a lower to hit and defenses, but better damage (including some fancy moves) and hit points. The ogre minion has higher to hit and defenses, but has lower damage (and can't afford to try its tricks) and HP.
But with the ogre, we're talking about a change from something already defined (and thus locked in) to something else.

The stat block is what it is, and doesn't change (unless the Ogre somehow gains or loses levels, extremely unlikely). The Ogre's interpretation of those stats and how they relate to what it's facing are what (most likely) determine its approach and-or actions. If it feels it's tougher and stronger than these puny Humans it's going to arrogantly stride in to the fray. If it feels it can't stand up to all that heavy metal armour and so forth, it's going to abandon the swagger and either fight for its life or run away.

But it still has the same to-hit and damage, it still has the same hit points, it still has the same 'tricks', regardless of who-what it's facing. It is consistent with itself, and with the world around it. To do anything else invalidates not only the setting itself but the PCs'/players' knowledge of that setting.

As a nasty side effect, changing the monsters like this also serves to steepen the power curve and reduce the range of PC levels at which a given monster is a viable foe. This was probably intentional, given as 4e was designed on the heels of 3e which had a horrifically steep power curve and the designers may well have been trying to maintain that, but it's still IMO a mistake.

The changes in the PCs as they gain levels over time should be more than enough to alter the threat presented by any given foe.
 

There's a rather big difference, though, in the types of change here.

With Tom, we're talking about a change from nothing (or something undefined) to something defined. It's more a numerical development of what was in hindsight there all along; and once those numbers are defined they're locked in until-unless Tom gains or loses levels.

But with the ogre, we're talking about a change from something already defined (and thus locked in) to something else.

The stat block is what it is, and doesn't change (unless the Ogre somehow gains or loses levels, extremely unlikely). The Ogre's interpretation of those stats and how they relate to what it's facing are what (most likely) determine its approach and-or actions. If it feels it's tougher and stronger than these puny Humans it's going to arrogantly stride in to the fray. If it feels it can't stand up to all that heavy metal armour and so forth, it's going to abandon the swagger and either fight for its life or run away.

But it still has the same to-hit and damage, it still has the same hit points, it still has the same 'tricks', regardless of who-what it's facing. It is consistent with itself, and with the world around it. To do anything else invalidates not only the setting itself but the PCs'/players' knowledge of that setting.

As a nasty side effect, changing the monsters like this also serves to steepen the power curve and reduce the range of PC levels at which a given monster is a viable foe. This was probably intentional, given as 4e was designed on the heels of 3e which had a horrifically steep power curve and the designers may well have been trying to maintain that, but it's still IMO a mistake.

The changes in the PCs as they gain levels over time should be more than enough to alter the threat presented by any given foe.
I disagree.

The stat block is just an abstraction.

We could go a step higher in the abstraction and look at the (combat) stat block as just an overall offense and defense score. Then we take a step down disperse those values into to hit/damage and defenses/hit points. As long as the overall values remain the same, the true (higher) stat block has not changed. Only the implementation for this particular encounter.

You could even add an option whereby creatures can adjust this distribution on the fly during combat (shifting from between a more conservative and more reckless fighting style). Admittedly, this option would probably be unwieldy in practice.

The problem with the stat block being unchanging is that it can produce unsatisfactory play experiences. The ogre against the low level party can be rocket tag. The ogre against the high level party may be nothing more than a speed bump, being unable to hit them.

While 5e certainly improved on that via bounded accuracy (wrt most editions), IMO it is still an inferior solution to stat blocks that are custom built for a given play experience (the tough ogre boss vs the low level party, or slicing through an ogre horde with high level characters).

I also disagree that this, by necessity, steepens the power curve. We certainly had an example of such in 4e, but that was because 4e was built around a steep power curve. Not because the only way to have bosses and minions is to have a steep power curve. I think that designing a boss/minion system based around 5e's far shallower power curve is entirely feasible.

Yes, certainly the power gained as PCs level changes their power relative to creatures with fixed stat blocks. That doesn't, however, mean that a fixed stat block will provide the most enjoyable play experience (unless your enjoyment is rooted in the notion that the stat block is fixed). That a stat block exists doesn't make it the best possible design for a given encounter.
 

This isn't nearly so much a problem, as it's easy to say that Tom was smart all along.

But once Tom's Int score gets locked in at 15 it stays there. His stats don't all change if he leaves the low-level party he just joined and meets a higher-level crew three days later (let's say they take him on as a hench) - he is what he is, and consistency is maintained.

But the Ogre's stats do change. If Tom's low-level party meet the Ogre, realize they can't kill it, and run from it; then Tom's higher-level party meet the same Ogre four days later it's the same Ogre and therefore should have exactly the same stats as when Tom met it the first time.

Put another way, a monster's stats serve a greater purpose than simply how it relates to the PCs: they represent in an abstract way how it relates to the entire setting, whether PCs are present or not.
The ability scores don’t have to change. The same creature can keep the Int 15 whether it’s a level 3 standard creature or a level 11 minion. You look at the XP value to determine the closest equivalent to its ”inherent” level/power.

4e’s encounter building and math require that you keep within about 10 levels of the party’s level (favoring going above than below). This is spelled out in the guidelines for creating combat encounters. If you want to feature Tom the level 3 town guard as a combat threat when the party is level 10 (after they first fought him around level 2), you have to either say that he got more powerful and simply up his level as a standard creature, or turn him into a level 10 minion to keep him at the same threat level.
 

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