D&D General 4e Healing was the best D&D healing

[Undrave]

This isn't nearly so much a problem, as it's easy to say that Tom was smart all along.

But once Tom's Int score gets locked in at 15 it stays there. His stats don't all change if he leaves the low-level party he just joined and meets a higher-level crew three days later (let's say they take him on as a hench) - he is what he is, and consistency is maintained.

But the Ogre's stats do change. If Tom's low-level party meet the Ogre, realize they can't kill it, and run from it; then Tom's higher-level party meet the same Ogre four days later it's the same Ogre and therefore should have exactly the same stats as when Tom met it the first time.

Put another way, a monster's stats serve a greater purpose than simply how it relates to the PCs: they represent in an abstract way how it relates to the entire setting, whether PCs are present or not.

I mean... how would party A know that Party B already encountered this specific Ogre? A lot of your problem with the approach could be fixed by... simply not having the party encounter the exact same individual ogre as different incarnation. Heck, maybe your party doesn't encounter Ogres beyond the one time they fight the Boss version. They don't KNOW the Minion version exist. Or, maybe the opposite. Your party was fighting Kobolds and Dragons for a while and now that they're fighting Giants they meet Ogres for the first time and they're minions. They don't know that ten level earlier the same type of creature would have been a solo.

Just because the stat block is there doesn't mean it has to exist in your world, nor does it mean your PC have to encounter them.

You can easily get away with saying the Solo they fought at lower level was a unique individual and the Standard Monster version is the only thing they encounter from now on and never use the Minion version. 4e Monsters are pretty easy to adjust on the fly so you can have them keep up in terms of accuracy but their HP and dmg remains the same so they're not as dangerous the more the PC level up.

Stat blocks are just tools.

 

[Garthanos]

You could even add an option whereby creatures can adjust this distribution on the fly during combat (shifting from between a more conservative and more reckless fighting style). Admittedly, this option would probably be unwieldy in practice.

Yeh like having many many times the core maneuvers or tadah just call each version of the character a fighting style. Minion being an abstraction of desperate offense and defense. It ends up being more complicated and more dm work.

 

[Lanefan]

I disagree.

Surprise, surprise.

The stat block is just an abstraction.

We could go a step higher in the abstraction and look at the (combat) stat block as just an overall offense and defense score. Then we take a step down disperse those values into to hit/damage and defenses/hit points. As long as the overall values remain the same, the true (higher) stat block has not changed. Only the implementation for this particular encounter.

You could even add an option whereby creatures can adjust this distribution on the fly during combat (shifting from between a more conservative and more reckless fighting style). Admittedly, this option would probably be unwieldy in practice.

The problem with the stat block being unchanging is that it can produce unsatisfactory play experiences. The ogre against the low level party can be rocket tag. The ogre against the high level party may be nothing more than a speed bump, being unable to hit them.

I don't find this unsatisfactory, in that it's consistent and both players and PCs know what to expect: an Ogre against neophytes is deadly but an Ogre against highly-trained professionals is a pushover.

The issue there is the power curve of the PCs is too steep, more on that below.

While 5e certainly improved on that via bounded accuracy (wrt most editions), IMO it is still an inferior solution to stat blocks that are custom built for a given play experience (the tough ogre boss vs the low level party, or slicing through an ogre horde with high level characters).

I also disagree that this, by necessity, steepens the power curve. We certainly had an example of such in 4e, but that was because 4e was built around a steep power curve. Not because the only way to have bosses and minions is to have a steep power curve. I think that designing a boss/minion system based around 5e's far shallower power curve is entirely feasible.

Numerically weakening specific creatures as the PCs get stronger steepens the power curve - you can't argue against that.

Pre-Unearthed 1e had a fairly flat power curve in comparison, in part because most of the time play only had to factor in 9-12 levels of PC power increase rather than 20 or 30. I really think that's part of the problem with WotC-era design: they want lots of levels because people love their new powerz, but in trying to find new powers to give for each level (because it seems not getting new stuff at a level-up isn't cool) they end up with a power curve problem leading to high-level play far too closely resembling a supers game.

The answer, of course, is to either reduce the number of levels and make each level last longer (so 5e would only be designed for 1-10 and left open-ended after that); or to make half the levels "dead" in terms of gaining anything other than more hit points (so, in 5e you'd go 1-20 but only the odd-numbered levels would grant any power-ups)

Yes, certainly the power gained as PCs level changes their power relative to creatures with fixed stat blocks. That doesn't, however, mean that a fixed stat block will provide the most enjoyable play experience (unless your enjoyment is rooted in the notion that the stat block is fixed). That a stat block exists doesn't make it the best possible design for a given encounter.

My enjoyment is in large part rooted in the setting being consistent with itself: that the mountain we passed on our way north will still be there on our way south, that the Ogre I meet at 12th level will be largely the same as the Ogre I met at 2nd level (i.e. only I will have changed), that if this guy has 1 hit point when I-as-PC hit him he's got 1 hit point when anyone in the setting hits him, that sort of thing.

Overall, that PCs are an integral part of the game world and not some separate thing.

 

[Lanefan]

I mean... how would party A know that Party B already encountered this specific Ogre?

In this particular case, Tom. He met it already, and might recognize some distinctive feature about it.

In general, because local lore has it that there's an Ogre in these woods, yet any more than one would have been too much for the villagers to handle.

A lot of your problem with the approach could be fixed by... simply not having the party encounter the exact same individual ogre as different incarnation. Heck, maybe your party doesn't encounter Ogres beyond the one time they fight the Boss version. They don't KNOW the Minion version exist. Or, maybe the opposite. Your party was fighting Kobolds and Dragons for a while and now that they're fighting Giants they meet Ogres for the first time and they're minions. They don't know that ten level earlier the same type of creature would have been a solo.

Just because the stat block is there doesn't mean it has to exist in your world, nor does it mean your PC have to encounter them.

You can easily get away with saying the Solo they fought at lower level was a unique individual and the Standard Monster version is the only thing they encounter from now on and never use the Minion version. 4e Monsters are pretty easy to adjust on the fly so you can have them keep up in terms of accuracy but their HP and dmg remains the same so they're not as dangerous the more the PC level up.

Stat blocks are just tools.

For common-ish critters like Ogres or Kobolds this can perhaps be done.

But for unique, named creatures? You fight Dresish the Swamp Lord at 2nd level - well, you run away from him except for the two PCs he catches and kills. Then, some time and levels later, you go back into the swamp to avenge your ex-companions. Dresish is still there, still the same a-hole you met before, and in theory should have the same (or very similar) stats...which means the idea of three-card-monte-ing the opponents falls apart.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Surprise, surprise.

I don't find this unsatisfactory, in that it's consistent and both players and PCs know what to expect: an Ogre against neophytes is deadly but an Ogre against highly-trained professionals is a pushover.

The issue there is the power curve of the PCs is too steep, more on that below.

Numerically weakening specific creatures as the PCs get stronger steepens the power curve - you can't argue against that.

Pre-Unearthed 1e had a fairly flat power curve in comparison, in part because most of the time play only had to factor in 9-12 levels of PC power increase rather than 20 or 30. I really think that's part of the problem with WotC-era design: they want lots of levels because people love their new powerz, but in trying to find new powers to give for each level (because it seems not getting new stuff at a level-up isn't cool) they end up with a power curve problem leading to high-level play far too closely resembling a supers game.

The answer, of course, is to either reduce the number of levels and make each level last longer (so 5e would only be designed for 1-10 and left open-ended after that); or to make half the levels "dead" in terms of gaining anything other than more hit points (so, in 5e you'd go 1-20 but only the odd-numbered levels would grant any power-ups)

My enjoyment is in large part rooted in the setting being consistent with itself: that the mountain we passed on our way north will still be there on our way south, that the Ogre I meet at 12th level will be largely the same as the Ogre I met at 2nd level (i.e. only I will have changed), that if this guy has 1 hit point when I-as-PC hit him he's got 1 hit point when anyone in the setting hits him, that sort of thing.

Overall, that PCs are an integral part of the game world and not some separate thing.

Power attack (-5 att for +10 damage) exists in the game. Along those lines we can conceptualize an ability that boosts 'to hit' in exchange for less damage. Similarly, we could imagine a Reckless Defense ability where you take a steep penalty to HP, but gain a +5 to AC and saving throws. You're less likely to get hit, but if you do that's probably it for you. Using PA, the to hit ability, or RD doesn't inherently change who the monster is. But if I bake those into the stat block suddenly I've fundamentally altered its nature? I don't think so.

The minion rules don't numerically weaken the ogre. Remember what I described about the higher order abstraction? That you could take the ogre's offensive and defensive capabilities and condense them into an offensive and defensive value? (4e and 5e literally use this approach to calculate CR/level, which itself is just another higher order abstraction.) We can then recondense the ogre's values from those values in a different arrangement without changing how powerful the ogre inherently is. The information in the system is preserved, it's simply presented differently.

I never played 1e (though I am familiar with it) but I did play a lot of 2e which has a similar power curve. Ogres had a reputation at our table as low level party killers. At higher levels, a single ogre wasn't much of a threat at all. Its Thac0 was nothing particularly amazing, so once your front liners got good armor, its ability to hit them was quite limited. Its AC of 5 would be easily hit by a higher level fighter.

I'm not suggesting that you can't use an ogre against a lower/higher level party in 1e/5e. You absolutely can. However, templates like boss or minion are useful tools for a DM to precisely adjust these sort of encounters. You can toss an ogre against those parties and get an encounter that is good enough. Using the templates, IME, gives far better results however. The ogre boss gives the lower level party a good fight, rather than just wading through them like an instant death spell on legs. The ogre minion let's the players face off against a horde of ogres without the fight turning into a gridy slog where the ogres have little chance to hit the PCs, but the PCs must nonetheless grind through the mountain of hit points before them.

Even if you have an extremely shallow power curve, minions still have a purpose. Feng Shui has a shallower power curve than 1e (IMO) but relies heavily on the use of mooks to convey its intended style of play.

Ultimately, I'm not trying to convince you to use minions if you don't like them. If you don't like them, don't use them. I'm not debating whether you should use them; I'm simply arguing for the idea that they are a coherent and useful element for those who do wish to use them.

 

[Undrave]

In this particular case, Tom. He met it already, and might recognize some distinctive feature about it.

In general, because local lore has it that there's an Ogre in these woods, yet any more than one would have been too much for the villagers to handle.

But Tom is an NPC, he doesn't know stats. Party A knows Party B encountered this Ogre, but they have no reason to think there is something wrong if, at their level, it's a standard monster while it was a solo for Party B. Party A will just think they're stronger than Party B, and they'll be right.

For common-ish critters like Ogres or Kobolds this can perhaps be done.

But for unique, named creatures? You fight Dresish the Swamp Lord at 2nd level - well, you run away from him except for the two PCs he catches and kills. Then, some time and levels later, you go back into the swamp to avenge your ex-companions. Dresish is still there, still the same a-hole you met before, and in theory should have the same (or very similar) stats...which means the idea of three-card-monte-ing the opponents falls apart.

No one is forcing you to use a downgraded creature if you don't feel like it. If they're encountering Dersish again then he can have the same stats and if the PC are strong enough they'll just wipe the floor with him. Or maybe Dersish ALSO gained a few levels while the PCs were away, enough to be tougher than he would have been, but still not as much a challenge as when the PC were 2nd level.

The different stat blocks (including the different monster roles) were there so you could offer the same creature in interesting configurations to differently levelled party, not to represent the evolution of a specific critter.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

We can then recondense the ogre's values from those values in a different arrangement without changing how powerful the ogre inherently is. The information in the system is preserved, it's simply presented differently.

Which is fine, in principle, if the new values are only going to interact with other new values that are abstracted in a similar way. Mass combat, for example, might require scaling damage to accommodate for the sheer numbers involved. There's nothing wrong with an ogre having 1hp, if the only thing you're comparing against is siege weaponry and mass attack formations. Both of those things (a trebuchet, and ten soldiers with spears attacking over the course of a minute) would be entirely capable of dropping an ogre under the standard rules.

The problem is that not everything interacting with a minion is using the same abstraction model, such that the vast majority of outcomes are a result of the difference in models, rather than reflecting the inherent characteristics of anything involved. A minion with 1hp, rather than 8hp, might be a fair abstraction if they could only be targeted by attacks that did at least 8 damage; but only a chump would bother wasting an actual attack on a minion, and risk doing nothing, instead of using one of the myriad ways to inflict trivial damage as a free action without requiring an attack roll. And we do still need to know how an ogre minion would react to falling ten feet, or suffering other minor environmental hazards; where the only rules we have will declare, in no uncertain terms, that these things should be instantly and irrevocably fatal.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Which is fine, in principle, if the new values are only going to interact with other new values that are abstracted in a similar way. Mass combat, for example, might require scaling damage to accommodate for the sheer numbers involved. There's nothing wrong with an ogre having 1hp, if the only thing you're comparing against is siege weaponry and mass attack formations. Both of those things (a trebuchet, and ten soldiers with spears attacking over the course of a minute) would be entirely capable of dropping an ogre under the standard rules.

The problem is that not everything interacting with a minion is using the same abstraction model, such that the vast majority of outcomes are a result of the difference in models, rather than reflecting the inherent characteristics of anything involved. A minion with 1hp, rather than 8hp, might be a fair abstraction if they could only be targeted by attacks that did at least 8 damage; but only a chump would bother wasting an actual attack on a minion, and risk doing nothing, instead of using one of the myriad ways to inflict trivial damage as a free action without requiring an attack roll. And we do still need to know how an ogre minion would react to falling ten feet, or suffering other minor environmental hazards; where the only rules we have will declare, in no uncertain terms, that these things should be instantly and irrevocably fatal.

It doesn't need to be the same model. PCs aren't the same model as monsters (they're just similar enough).

The ogre minion dies if he falls 10 feet. Because he lands on his head and breaks his neck. That could also happen to a regular ogre or a boss ogre, assuming that their hit points have been depleted.

We already established in a prior conversation that if something deals 1 damage, it should be potentially lethal. As long as we hold to that axiom, there's no issue with an ogre minion being killed by 1 point of damage, because a regular ogre could also be killed by that same source. It's just that the minion isn't wearing his "plot armor".

 

[The Crimson Binome]

We already established in a prior conversation that if something deals 1 damage, it should be potentially lethal.

If that's what you got out of our conversation, then I guess we were talking past each other all along.

One point of damage represents something that should never be fatal to a healthy adult human, by itself; but which could be fatal if repeated a finite number of times. If a healthy adult ogre can't possibly die from falling ten feet when represented in the standard model, but it does die from falling ten feet when represented as a minion, then something has gone horribly wrong. That's the sort of modeling error which gets a system ridiculed for decades after the game is discontinued.

 

[Lanefan]

It doesn't need to be the same model. PCs aren't the same model as monsters (they're just similar enough).

The ogre minion dies if he falls 10 feet. Because he lands on his head and breaks his neck. That could also happen to a regular ogre or a boss ogre, assuming that their hit points have been depleted.

However, that amount of depletion on a regular Ogre would be obvious to any observer as the Ogre would look beat to hell, thus an attacker could surmise one good hit might finish it off. But a minion can't be visually distinguished from a fully-healthy regular, so once again consistency falls apart.

We already established in a prior conversation that if something deals 1 damage, it should be potentially lethal. As long as we hold to that axiom, there's no issue with an ogre minion being killed by 1 point of damage, because a regular ogre could also be killed by that same source. It's just that the minion isn't wearing his "plot armor".

When interacting with the rest of the world - say, it's Ogre buddies over breakfast that morning, how many hit points does the minion Ogre have?

I venture the answer will be a number higher than one.

So between breakfast and now, where did those hit points go; and if the minion really is down to one h.p. why doesn't it look beat-up?

(I had a long reply in progress to your earlier post but my computer crashed, sorry)