D&D 4E 4e Hourse Rule: Surprised minions -> Full warrior combat

[Mishihari Lord]

I like it, but probably wouldn't apply it to AoE spells. I would apply it to PCs. Give them some reason to bump up whatever the 4E skills are for spot, perception, listen, etc.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Someone casually mentioned this idea in passing, and I thought it was a such a brilliant and elegant idea I wanted a thread to expand on it.

The idea is this, if a creature is surprised, it is treated like a minion (ie one shot one kill). However, when the creature is not surprised, it has the full hit points of a regular monster.

This is a great way to do stealth adventures in dnd. A party can go on assassinating missions, knowing they can easily whatever they attack. But they have to be constantly weary, because once the surprise wears off, 30 minions becomes 30 regular guys.

I liked the idea of using some metagame resource like drama or action points to facilitate such situations.
Either the player choose to initiate a "sudden death" scenario - they win initiative, and they spent an action point to get a "sudden death" attack.
Or the DM says "sudden death" against the PCs or some allied NPCs, and all the players receive one action point. This would allow to run stuff like hostage scenarios and player capturing.
BBEG holds knife at PC lovers throat. "Let me go or she dies!" DM explains "Sudden Death. You all get an action point. Do whatever you want with skills and hope you don't fail to hard. You can choose to attack, but if you miss, she dies! If you hit, he is out of the fight"
Or 10 Guards with Crossbows circle the PCs. "Drop your weapons and come with us!" DM Explains "sudden death - every hit kills or incapacitates"

 

[Plane Sailing]

I like the idea of that kind of mechanic (and I'd forgotten how much it appealed the first time I read something like it, in Conan OGL I think, where the DM is encouraged to arbitrarily put the PCs in an awful situation but give them a fate point to ease the pain (fate points are much more powerful than action points, of course).

the Black Company campaign setting by Green Ronin had a system, I believe, that enabled even high level people to get whacked if they were caught by surprise (to enable some scenes from the books to actually work in game).

I imagine that it would dramatically change the way in which PCs were played, with much more stealth and searching - which could work well, but could just turn into player paranoia where nothing ends up happening!

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I might make it a secret rule, so that my players could always make use of good stealth tactics... unless I wanted it otherwise.

 

[hong]

I don't think this rule should apply to the PCs, or any sort of sneaky monster could easily result in multiple PC deaths.

I also don't think this rule should apply to more important opponents. I don't want the PCs' daring raid of the evil necromancer's tower to end with them getting the drop on the necromancer and wasting him with one hit.

In fact, maybe it would be best if this rule only applied to really inconsequential enemies like nameless guards. You know, minions.

WHY??? WHY DOES NOONE LISTEN TO JASIN??/?

 

[Dragonblade]

I might make it a secret rule, so that my players could always make use of good stealth tactics... unless I wanted it otherwise.

This.

 

[Xorn]

I don't think this rule should apply to the PCs, or any sort of sneaky monster could easily result in multiple PC deaths.

I also don't think this rule should apply to more important opponents. I don't want the PCs' daring raid of the evil necromancer's tower to end with them getting the drop on the necromancer and wasting him with one hit.

In fact, maybe it would be best if this rule only applied to really inconsequential enemies like nameless guards. You know, minions.

We should houserule a template that we could lay over a standard creature stat block that would make it likely to die to any attack, and call it "fodder" or something along those lines.

Sorry, couldn't help it. I agree that jasin has made the point pretty clearly. If you're playing a character that should be one-shotting non-minions because of stealth or special preparations, they will have a power that increases the likelihood of that occurring.

 

[kilpatds]

The idea is this, if a creature is surprised, it is treated like a minion (ie one shot one kill). However, when the creature is not surprised, it has the full hit points of a regular monster.

I think this would be a good way to provide flavor to a ShadowRun type campaign. But for it to fully provide that flavor, it has to go both ways ... and that will cause a lot of PC deaths. So only if your players are ok losing 1/2 the party each night.

Which could be a very fun game, but doesn't seem to be "traditional" D&D. But don't let that stop you, if your players are Ok with the rule and it's implications.

 

[Saitou]

All I want is a Minion template that I can slap onto any creature.



Ancient Wyrm Black Dragon Minions here we go!

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I don't think this rule should apply to the PCs, or any sort of sneaky monster could easily result in multiple PC deaths.

I also don't think this rule should apply to more important opponents. I don't want the PCs' daring raid of the evil necromancer's tower to end with them getting the drop on the necromancer and wasting him with one hit.

In fact, maybe it would be best if this rule only applied to really inconsequential enemies like nameless guards. You know, minions.

Honestly, this (and Hong's reply) is one of the funniest things I've ever seen on ENWorld.

I think what the rule should be is that DMs should arrange it so that the guards should turn out to be minions if the PCs use stealth and there is no compelling story reason that the DM wants to implement.