D&D 4E 4E in Car-speak: "No Sale"

[CleverNickName]

Umm... minor point. You bought the books. That's a "yes, sale".

I think there is a difference between buying something, and being sold on it. (ducks)

 

[trav_laney]

I distrust car salesmen.

Maybe I'm just overly pessemistic, but without a test drive, do we really know that the 4E roadster handles any better than the 3.5E model? 3.5E has problems, and I find myself doing a lot of repairs on the weekends, but I don't think I am ready to throw up my hands and say "hell, anything would be better than this pile of crap." Because let's face it, there are a lot worse cars out there than the 3.5E Hummer.

It sounds like a lot of people are deciding to buy the new car based only on what they are reading from the manufacturer's press releases...few, if any, independent reviews and studies have been done on it. So of course we have only heard good things about it.

I'm going to wait until after Christmas to buy the new model...that should give me ample time to read both sides of the story on it and make an informed decision on whether or not this new sporty roadster is, indeed, the car for me.

 

[Delta]

Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

[Henry]

Is this a typo or do you really mean that Mearls playtested OD&D? Link to info on this? I'm curious. Thanks.

He ran a few games in the WotC offices during their lunchbreaks, and blogged about it on his site. So he "playtested" Original D&D, but not in the sense of "1974-playtested it." He talked about his observations on the differences in game styles between 4e and OD&D in the posts.

 

[Tusz]

I plan on buying this new car, since my old one isn't handling as well as I'd like, and it'd cost just as much to overhaul it as it would to buy a new one. That said, I'll probably be the only one driving the new model in my group of friends. The only other guy in my group who likes driving is too used to the way his old '89 handles, and he'd probably crash the new car if he drove it. Then none of my friends would ever want to get in it again, regardless of who's driving.

 

[pweent]

I have a different point of view. To me, first edition is like a classic muscle-car. It might not be all shiny and high-tech, but it's got some serious *style*.

Wow. It's amazing the range of difference in perspectives. To me, first edition (and I cannot comment on OD&D, as AD&D 1st ed. is where I started) is more like the Model T Ford. It's hugely important, and pretty much invented the industry as it stands. I totally understand the appeal and the enthusiasts who maintain theirs and show them off. I wouldn't mind owning one, and could imagine driving it around for special occasions. But it would never be what I drove around on a day to day basis. Its mechanical design is completely of its time, and we've had years of experience to let us build on those fundamentals, to figure out what worked and what did not. Plus my arm gets tired from cranking the starter, and I'm always worried about the darn thing kicking back on me. It's still a beautiful thing, though.

And I hope that this tortured analogy can get across a little of the difference between "It sucks!" and "I hate it!", and "Wow, that design has a lot wrong with it."

 

[seskis281]

Ya know, the funny thing is I brought up the car metaphor about two years ago on these boards, discussing "old school" versus 3.5...

And the majority of posters hit me pretty hard for saying I preferred older editions to the sleek, nearly-perfected model that was 3.5.

I'd still buy the original Volkswagon Beetle over the modern version, despite the bells and whistles (and cost).

I really don't think its bad to love any version better than another -- I love C&C, which is a hybrid between 1e and d20, so for some of us it's just right, for others from both ends of the spectrum it just doesn't fly with them and their individual tastes. I suspect a major issue with 4e is that it, too, is attempting to hybridize philosophies - it certainly is looking for the quick play and less rules intensive approach that makes it a harkening toward old school, gamist mentalities; yet, at the same time, it is also geared towards increasing the power levels of characters, inate and otherwise, to appeal to a modern cultural desire for FRPGs to be more super-heroic from the earliest levels (more of an appeal to younger gamers and those that enjoy the more diverse influences of comics, multimedia, etc.). Now, WotC has a bigger leg up than smaller companies in going Hybrid, but it will still get caught in the connundrum of displeasing alot of people even as it pleases a particular core audience that it aims for. Ya just can't be all things to all people, and all you have to do is sit at any game table and you'll likely run into at least two different POV's on "what D&D is supposed to be."

But back to the "car" metaphor... the interesting thing is how many seem to be welcoming 4e as some sort of pinacle of game development, and the discord between those happy with 3.x editions and (some, not all for sure) 4e'ers reflects a desire that is age old: we wan't to feel validated in our tastes and judgments. If you love 3.5, you really didn't want anyone, LET ALONE THE COMPANY MAKING IT, basically saying "well this is worn out and worthless." Welcome to the world of grognardism lol!!! Those who are devoted to OD&D, 1e, 2e, etc. know just how you feel now. Those committing with ferocity to 4e already (which is interesting as the full game is yet to be released) are having the same feelings that anyone who's ever bought a new car is feeling - you have this shiny new wonderful vehicle. You don't want anything to be wrong with it, and you certainly don't like people who dislike it for things like "I hate that shade of yellow," or "it's automatic? Bah, automatic is dumbed down for wusses - give me stick-shift!"

All this is just to say, those of you feeling like you're being "betrayed" in 3.5 vs 4e edition wars (either way), just remember....

That new car smell goes away all too quickly - just make sure the car you have is the one that fits you and your needs, whether its a classic, a great deal on a good used one, or the new model you've been waiting for.

 

[seskis281]

Wow. It's amazing the range of difference in perspectives. To me, first edition (and I cannot comment on OD&D, as AD&D 1st ed. is where I started) is more like the Model T Ford. It's hugely important, and pretty much invented the industry as it stands. I totally understand the appeal and the enthusiasts who maintain theirs and show them off. I wouldn't mind owning one, and could imagine driving it around for special occasions. But it would never be what I drove around on a day to day basis. Its mechanical design is completely of its time, and we've had years of experience to let us build on those fundamental, to figure out what worked and what did not. And my arm gets tired from cranking the starter, and I'm always worried about the darn thing kicking back on me. It's still a beautiful thing.

And I hope that this tortured analogy can get across a little of the difference between "It sucks!" and "I hate it!", and "Wow, that design has a lot wrong with it."

Again, the only problem with the analogy is that plenty of people are still "driving" OD&D, 1e, etc. No one drives a Model T.

The more apt comparison would be the VW Bug, or the 1970's Mustang.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

For me 3e is my Daytona, it's an ugly little car many people claim is too old and outdated to make your primary ride anymore. But they're only looking as far as the crappy paint and out of style t-tops. I don't really care that the tinting is peeling and its sound system won't play MP3s. Because I've spent more time under it's hood than most people have in their own bed. You can't see the new suspension or the fresh block with its sequential turbos from a hundred feet away. But all I really care about is when I hit the gas it'll run with a new Porshe and leave burn marks a hundred yards long.

 

[Banshee16]

No, it's rebuild the drivetrain while keeping the body and frame similar.
3.5 is kinda like stickshift.
I think Manual Transmission SUCKS.

Thus I like 4e. If you want to play 35 more power to you but dude, whatever.

Manual transmission....the only way to go. The car just doesn't feel the same with automatic

Banshee