D&D 4E 4e-inspired modular combat system

[RangerWickett]

Oh, also, I'm not a huge fan of the "effect lasts for 6 to 12 seconds" style conditions that the 'save ends' mechanic causes, at least not for all conditions.

 

[Garthanos]

I admit that the Avengers -- only fight one target and it messes me up if there are others around - is a bit clumsy mechanically but it rather works for a duelist (your idea is less mechanically I dont know fragile? ... )

The eratic durations seem reasonable to me... though I admit I would like them to be based on the situation a little more... for instance if the save can be penalized and boosted... by spending more actions on it?

 

[Alex319]

Interesting idea, and I am interested to see how it plays out in an actual game.

(First of all, just a question: how do you get more fighting styles?)

I'm not sure to what extent it will actually solve the problem of "looking through power cards," because essentially players will still have "power cards" (and at least as many,) and they are still choosing one each round, the only difference is they can choose more than one, up to the PR.

The "Normal Bonus Damage" is too weak. There's no reason to ever choose normal bonus damage (+1w if you hit) over just making another basic attack (+1w+stat+other bonuses if you hit). I'm not sure what's the point of making the "Normal Bonus Damage" cost twice as much as the "Light Bonus Damage."

The more general concern I have over ideas like this is that it's often possible to find the most efficient choice and keep repeating it. For example, in your system, an epic tier character can get 8 light attacks per round - every round. And at that level there are so many ways to get static damage bonuses and passive ways of doing other things on a hit that the fact that you're not getting the +stat to damage is largely superfluous. The encounter/daily system specifically avoids this problem by making key powers usable only once per encounter so you can't do the same thing over and over.

If you're going to get rid of the encounter/daily system it might be a good idea to put in something else to solve that problem. For example:

- Extra PR cost for multiple attacks in a round.
- Extra PR cost for using the same option over and over.

 

[Garthanos]

Yes the anti-repeat rule idea... basically you have a predictability penalty.

basically you could see it as the current game having an anti repeat penalty on the encounter/daily powers that would jack them down to an at-will.

 

[LostSoul]

Primarily I want to introduce a system like this into my home game as an alternative to the power system built into 4e. I really dislike when a player starts his turn, then flips through his available power cards, instead of reacting to the situation of combat. I feel that having to mentally process "how do I make this power useful in this situation" takes longer than "here's what I want to accomplish on my turn, so let me figure out which of these action components help me toward that goal."

Why do you want a player to say "I do x" on his turn instead of saying "I use... ummm... power x"?

Forgive the stupid question. I'm trying not to bring any of my assumptions into this.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, a variety of small reasons.

I like flexibility and ingenuity, and 4e as written doesn't give you that many tools. People end up using the same series of attacks every encounter, even if they have rider effects that are pointless, simply because those attacks deal more damage than at-wills. It's like the game is an anime and the animators just want to reuse the same frames each episode. It gets repetitive.

I also dislike the mental disconnect that, "Oh, I'm a skilled swordsman, so I know how to momentarily hobble my opponent, but I can only ever pull off that move once in a five minute period." Or Daily powers as a concept at all.

I guess I'm trying to go for a more narrative combat system, where you fight like you would in a story, instead of like you would in a video game.

I do agree with Alex and Garthanos that some sort of way of discouraging 'repeating the same attack' would help. Maybe just saying you take a -2 penalty if you do the same thing twice in a row, because your opponent sees it coming.

 

[Garthanos]

I do agree with Alex and Garthanos that some sort of way of discouraging 'repeating the same attack' would help. Maybe just saying you take a -2 penalty if you do the same thing twice in a row, because your opponent sees it coming.

You will need something serious or the optimized spammer will kill the exact fun you are trying to encourage.
Another problem is how same does same have to be... before it warrants the penalty... and is minus 2 sufficient... it could be a minus 2 the second time in the entire encounter for some effects." I'd have to be an idiot to let him pull that twice."

The thief paragon path which allowed one to reuse a move if you rolled really well could give an idea... recover the points and no penalty for reuse.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, a variety of small reasons.

I also dislike the mental disconnect that, "Oh, I'm a skilled swordsman, so I know how to momentarily hobble my opponent, but I can only ever pull off that move once in a five minute period." Or Daily powers as a concept at all.

Every round of 6 seconds could involve 18 or so strokes ;-) depending on the fighter..... etc. There are a lot of momentary everyday moves all incompassed by your characters normal skill... A move that noticeably impaired me for 6 seconds in a real fight would be ahem, a death knell.

The special moves are literally fool me once shame on you ... fool me twice shame on me.

"The Wide eyed Doe in head lights" move is one I made up a while back not for D&D but for an other game that had tactics with limited usages... even from the description alone... I couldn't even consider letting that move work more often than once per encounter.

Some of the dailies are deep resource moves that I find very easy to picture as dailies.... Boundless endurance is the unrelenting heroic surge of spirit (... hit points being in part luck spirit and energy which you use to minimize wounds --- fantasy favors the warrior)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, a variety of small reasons.

I like flexibility and ingenuity, and 4e as written doesn't give you that many tools. People end up using the same series of attacks every encounter, even if they have rider effects that are pointless, simply because those attacks deal more damage than at-wills. It's like the game is an anime and the animators just want to reuse the same frames each episode. It gets repetitive.

I also dislike the mental disconnect that, "Oh, I'm a skilled swordsman, so I know how to momentarily hobble my opponent, but I can only ever pull off that move once in a five minute period." Or Daily powers as a concept at all.

I guess I'm trying to go for a more narrative combat system, where you fight like you would in a story, instead of like you would in a video game.

I do agree with Alex and Garthanos that some sort of way of discouraging 'repeating the same attack' would help. Maybe just saying you take a -2 penalty if you do the same thing twice in a row, because your opponent sees it coming.

If you want the characters to use different attacks every round, I don't think "build your own power on the fly" system will help you. It makes it highly likely the player figures out the optimal set of "improvised" powers and repeat them over and over again.
The alternative is that they suffer an analysis paralysis far greater than the existing power system already causes, because they choose from a large catalogue of options they have to create in their head.


If you want characters to use different powers every encounter, force them to "retrain" all their encounter powers after every short rest and every daily power after their extended rest. No repeated power selections between extended rests for encounter powers, so every fight sees a new combination of powers.

But even that won't avoid your players using the highest damage power available regardless of secondary effects. If the players do that, the fights are probably to easy and they haven't had the need to actually use the secondary effects to get tactical advantange that aid them in dealing more damage or avoid taking damage.

---

Though I must admit I am still always interested in "buy-the-numbers" system for combat maneuvers. I just don't believe it will ever actually work that great in actual play.

 

[LostSoul]

RW, if you will indulge me:

What would you like to see a combat round play out like? You can throw in mechanics or not in your description.

I mean something like this:

"Okay, roll init."
(roll, roll)
"Thraxus goes first."
"I open up by moving to this square and use Steel Serpent Strike."
(roll, roll)
"You hit; he's not bloodied but falls prone."

Like that, except with how you want to see it play out.