D&D 4E 4e -- Is The World Made Of Cheese?

[eleran]

Where's the fun in that? I miss tables like this: http://www.geocities.com/floydreinstien/amshotgunbdg.html

That's worth paying for!!

Nail....head!!

I think this is EXACTLY what a lot of us are glad to see gone in 4e. I thank you for finally crystallizing it.

If you want this table, 4e is possibly not 4u

 

[small pumpkin man]

Trying to carve your way through walls as a matter of course is very odd indeed.

I realize this is old, but you do realize there's an entire D&D genre named after destroying barriers? And it's a common enough style that good rules for what happens when you "Kick in the door" will come in useful.

 

[qstor]

@Lizard; I'm surprised you haven't mentioend how rangers can, forsome reaosn, only use their maneuvers with two weapons and/or how non-rangers cannot truly dual weild.

how about small creatures can't use 2 handed weapons?

 

[hong]

I realize this is old, but you do realize there's an entire D&D genre named after destroying barriers? And "Kick in the door" style D&D isn't exactly rare.

Kicking doors in, yes. Not carving through walls.

 

[Rel]

Because he always praises 4e, of course. Haven't you caught onto how EN World works by now?

Praising 4e = you're right.

Finding anything wrong with it - ANYTHING AT ALL! - even if you overall support it = you're wrong. And closeminded. And dumb. And a bad DM.

I'm not sure if you're implying this is some kid of "official board policy" or not. If so then let me assure you that you're wrong. We are more than happy to let people dislike some, most or all of 4e or any game system and post about it here. The rules simply require that you be civil and polite about it.

 

[eleran]

I realize this is old, but you do realize there's an entire D&D genre named after destroying barriers? And it's a common enough style that good rules for what happens when you "Kick in the door" will come in useful.

Kicking in doors is great. Classic, wonderful trope.

Using a greatsword to carve a whole in a wall is, to quote the OP....made of cheese.

 

[The Little Raven]

We are more than happy to let people dislike some, most or all of 4e or any game system and post about it here.

Indeed. General RPG Discussion is chock full o' anti-4e threads.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

#2

DM: Okay, after leaving you trapped beneath the earth by the landslide, your archnemesis has escaped. You are eventually going to run out of air, and if you don't stop him, he will have the McGuffin in a week. What are you doing.

Players: We start digging our way out.

3e: DM does some math, and either has them start making rolls, or computes an average, and figures out how long it will take them to get through the wall. There's nothing to stop them or harrass them, so they just go at it.

4e: Pretty much the same, except the DM can just decide how long he wants it to take for dramatic purposes, or based on past experiences with tunneling through rock. He can say, "Oh well, you have a dwarf with you, so he lends his expertise and you make relatively good time. It takes you until late afternoon to safely tunnel through to the passage beyond." Or whatever he would like to make it seem exciting or tedious as fits his needs.

#3

Same as #2, except the DM knows that the noise they make tunneling will attract the boojum, which will burrow in and attack.

3e: They start attacking hardness and hit points, the boojum shows up long before they get out and attacks. They kill it, and take it's tunnel out or finish theirs.

4e: See above.

Basically, the designers decided for 4e to focus on dramatic moments. Combat needs good, consistent rules so that it is smooth, engaging and easy to master (rules-wise). Breaking through a wall doesn't because it's always either a dramatic moment (in which case, you don't have time) or it's a non-dramatic moment (in which, it doesn't matter).

Dundelundundun! Riding to the rescue for this whole issue would be skill challenges. There, now you can tunnel to your hearts content. Need to tunnel X distance. It's a Y challenge requiring Z checks and takes however much time that seems reasonable.

Tunneling should not be covered under the combat rules. 3.x allowed anyone with power attack, a two handed weapon and a BAB of 5 or more to ignore the hardness of pretty much anything.

And that's the reason that hardness has now gone away, IMO. It never really did anything in 3e. If something was too hard, you simply couldn't dig through it/damage it. If it wasn't, you could. Unless there was some time restriction, hardness was entirely a pass/fail situation. And, considering the hardness of most items, it was pass in most cases. Locked door? Not a problem, hack through it in a few rounds. Iron door? Ok, takes a few rounds more.

Heck, there's a Dragon article in the late Paizo Dragons that talks about doing exactly this. Exploiting the hardness rules and simply bashing your way through anything. So, it's not like no one was aware of this.

But, in any case, in the examples Lizard has posted - like tunneling under a wall, escaping from a prison - hardness is really irrelevant. You should be using the Skill Challenge rules for this, not the combat rules.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Indeed. General RPG Discussion is chock full o' anti-4e threads.

And, amazingly enough, pro-4e people... in the 4e forums!

Has the world gone mad?

 

[silentounce]

Indeed. General RPG Discussion is chock full o' anti-4e threads.

Guess I'm in the wrong place then. I'm interested in D&D so I came to the 4e board. I'd rather not have to follow two different places to get info on 4e. I had no idea discussion was occurring over there as well. I'm serious.

I like some things about 4e, and I'm willing to give it a shot. But, the more I see of it, the more I feel it's a big departure from previous versions. Some people think that's a good thing. I don't. If I wanted to play a different system than D&D, I would have done so. Now, to me, 4e seems like a completely different system. Well, I guess it is.