D&D 4E 4E Magic Items...

[Ogrork the Mighty]

So I read the posting preview about 4E magic items (on the EN World home page) and I'm left with the following question...

4E is reducing PCs' reliance on magic items... how exactly?

All I see is reducing the ability to use rings and some optional rules to limit magic items. Everything looks like the 3E Christmas tree effect to me. Doing away with enhancement items for certain body slots isn't going to stop the Christmas tree effect. It'll just change the "colour of the lights."

Really, I was kinda surprised/disappointed to read this preview. I thought they were really clamping down on number of magic items PCs can use...

 

[whydirt]

There's already a couple of discussion threads about this if you want to see what other people are saying.

Here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=217253

and here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=217331

 

[JohnSnow]

It's amazing to me to see how people can read the same article and come away with totally different impressions.

As far as I read, Fourth Edition PCs will have precisely THREE numerical bonus items (unless they have more than one magic weapon or implement). They'll have one weapon (or implement) that boosts attacks and damage. They'll have armor that boosts their AC. And they'll have a cloak (or medallion) that boosts their other defenses (ALL their other defenses!) as well as providing some other snazzy ability.

People are reading about all these random items providing "bonuses" and assuming those bonuses will be numeric. They aren't. Those boots of water-walking, for example, might make it easier for their wearer in some encounters, but their use is pretty situational.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Ahhh, thanks. I went looking for other threads but must have missed 'em.

I don't understand why people seem to think that the Christmas tree effect is limited to ability-enhancing items. Just doing away with those doesn't solve the Christmas tree effect. As I said above, it just changes the colour of the lights.

 

[Khuxan]

So I read the posting preview about 4E magic items (on the EN World home page) and I'm left with the following question...

4E is reducing PCs' reliance on magic items... how exactly?

All I see is reducing the ability to use rings and some optional rules to limit magic items. Everything looks like the 3E Christmas tree effect to me. Doing away with enhancement items for certain body slots isn't going to stop the Christmas tree effect. It'll just change the "colour of the lights."

Really, I was kinda surprised/disappointed to read this preview. I thought they were really clamping down on number of magic items PCs can use...

In 3E, the 'Big Six' magical items were necessary for game balance. In particular, at high levels martial characters required magical items to be able to compete with wizards and clerics. Money that could've been spent on castles, farms, spy networks or interesting, quirky magic items was instead spent on better weapons, better armor and better stat boosts because that was the only way to remain competitive.

In 4E, they've turned the Christmas Tree into a Christmas Shrub. From a 'Big Six' we've gone to a 'Big Three'. The other magic item slots are still there, but they no longer grant static bonuses - so now they can be used for interesting, niche abilities or used not at all.

If we use Frodo as an example, he had a magic sword, magic armor and an elven cloak (the Big Three), and then he had the vial of the light of Eärendil and the lembas (wondrous items). He didn't need the elf bread or light-thing to (for the most part) be viable in combat. In 3E, Frodo would've needed Gloves of Dexterity, Amulets of Natural Armor and so on just to remain viable - and then he wouldn't have had any gp for waybread or the vial.

 

[Agamon]

Ahhh, thanks. I went looking for other threads but must have missed 'em.

I don't understand why people seem to think that the Christmas tree effect is limited to ability-enhancing items. Just doing away with those doesn't solve the Christmas tree effect. As I said above, it just changes the colour of the lights.

The biggest difference is, if you like flashy Christmas trees, okay. But it'll be no problem in my game to make the PCs look more like wild Douglas Firs sitting on the side of a mountain.

 

[drothgery]

I don't understand why people seem to think that the Christmas tree effect is limited to ability-enhancing items. Just doing away with those doesn't solve the Christmas tree effect. As I said above, it just changes the colour of the lights.

I think they're doing quite a bit, really.

Instead of being able to boost your AC with a dex-boosting item, magic shields, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, cloaks of displacement at high levels, and one of magic armor, bracers of defense, or a magic robe, the only way to do it with something that fills the armor/clothes slot.

Instead of being able to boost your attacks with a strength or dex boosting item and a magic weapon (for non-casters) or with the approriate stat booster and other miscelaneous items (for casters), the only option for this is a weapon/implement.

And there's no way to move a save booster from an item that takes a frequently needed spot (cloak of resistance) to an item that takes a rarely needed slot (vest of resistance); all save boosters use the same slot.

Your boots of water walking or bags of holding just aren't going to have a major impact on your combat ability, so it shouldn't matter too much for determining approriate threats whether you have them or not.

 

[Irda Ranger]

In particular, at high levels martial characters required magical items to be able to compete with wizards and clerics.

To be perfectly honest though, we don't know that this isn't still true in 4E. I hope it's not true. But we don't know. It may remain the case that a Helm of True Sight and a pair of Boots of Minor Shadow Jump will prove themselves the minimum indispensable kit for Fighters who don't want to get hosed by flying, invisible Warlocks.

The best thing I can say is that the design team is aware of this issue, has said they'll address it, and has proven themselves to be pretty smart about finding solutions for other stuff (even if not everyone is 100% happy with said solutions (as if such a thing were possible anyway)). So, I am hopeful.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

In 3E, the 'Big Six' magical items were necessary for game balance. In particular, at high levels martial characters required magical items to be able to compete with wizards and clerics. Money that could've been spent on castles, farms, spy networks or interesting, quirky magic items was instead spent on better weapons, better armor and better stat boosts because that was the only way to remain competitive.

And items of See Invisible, Fly, and FoM/Dim Door.
Read ANY discussion of what high-level fighters need to compete. Beyond stat boosts, these capabilities are always mentioned (particularly the first two). They are not the so-called "Big Six," and they might be considered "quirky" and "interesting," but they are SO useful as to be "must-have" in 3.5.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I don't understand why people seem to think that the Christmas tree effect is limited to ability-enhancing items. Just doing away with those doesn't solve the Christmas tree effect. As I said above, it just changes the colour of the lights.

DM's with a Christmas spirit who like to give out Girdles of Giant Strength can do that. DM's with more of a Festivus point of view, and find all those magical items distracting, can not hand it out and make you rely on your own stats in the Feats of Strength. And either way, the game design assumptions are not futzed with and all the monster levels, adventure designs and magic item levels still work just fine.

The Christmas Tree ain't entirely gone, but it's mostly optional. Since some people like that kind of thing, I think that's pretty cool.

And Mearls has confirmed in another thread that even Newbie DM's you can make magic items entirely optional with about 15 minutes worth of house rule writing (which I expect to be a free download on someone's site within 17 minutes of 4E being released; so even easier).

So relax ... this problem has been solved.