D&D 4E 4e Monster List - Dwarven Nosepicker & Elven Butt Scratcher

[Storm-Bringer]

Exactly. Howdrowf the Ogre is just all around tougher and meaner than his fellow ogres. His achievements gained him notoriety and thus brought him to the attention of Dirk Doomfist.

Instead of viewing it like he was an ogre minion that magically became a solo to fit the narrative, view it more like he always was a solo and thats why he was handpicked by Dirk Doomfist to take on the PCs by himself.

What if the characters attack Castle Doomfist before Dirk sends Howdrowf out? Is the ogre still a solo?

 

[Wormwood]

If Dirk Doomfist chooses Howdrowf the ogre from among his faceless minions, literally plucks him at random from his horde of goose-stepping ogre compatriots, and tells him to hunt down this low-level party he has a feeling might someday cause trouble, Howdrowf shouldn't suddenly get 5x as many hit points and a smattering of additional actions/reactions.

Reading this statement, I think I finally understand the simulationist mindset---and for that I honestly thank you.

Now I see where so many of you are coming from, and how much different my viewpoint actually is.

 

[helium3]

And you still can, with the rules in the DMG for turning any creature into a Solo threat.

Y'know. It might be nice to have a single place where important supplementary materials that's going to be in the MM and the DMG is listed.

A lot of the 3E vs. 4E arguments lately have been boiling down to "I don't like that I'm going to have to run my game in the following manner . . ." being countered by "Rule's for how to do it the way you like will be in the DMG!!"

 

[helium3]

Reading this statement, I think I finally understand the simulationist mindset---and for that I honestly thank you.

Now I see where so many of you are coming from, and how much different my viewpoint actually is.

Well. Not sure if the above was intended as a very sly put-down, but I can say that a lot of the Simulationist folks also seem to be into resource management more than the others. I think it's the sheer excitement of puzzling out how to make something happen despite self-imposed limitations.

 

[AllisterH]

What if the characters attack Castle Doomfist before Dirk sends Howdrowf out? Is the ogre still a solo?

That specific OGRE? Sure, why not. Only difference is tha the PCs will most likely not run into that specific ogre.

Although you could always have that ogre with the other normal ogres.

Personally, I'm a little unclear as to what the complaint is. That you can't throw a single ogre against a 1st level party? Why not? Just don't expect a good fight or anything resembling a balanced encounter.

The number of creatures involved on the enemy side doesn't have to total 5 if the Encounter group for the Grick are anything to go by.

Encounter Groups
Level 9 Encounter (XP 1,900)
1 grick alpha (Level 9 Brute)
3 gricks (Level 7 Brute)
2 Dire stirges (Level 7 Lurkers)

By my count, that's six creatures facing down a 5 person party. The encounter balancing seems to be a combination of both numbers AND xp budget.

Someone on WOTC's board did a one normal monster (500 xp) versus 5 playtest characters fight and it did end up with one PC dead and the monster dead...let me see if I can find it..

 

[Dausuul]

What if the characters attack Castle Doomfist before Dirk sends Howdrowf out? Is the ogre still a solo?

If they fought Howdrowf in Castle Doomfist, and he had regular ogre stats then, and they have some way to recognize him when he tracks them down, then no, he's not a solo. His stats remain nebulous until it becomes necessary to figure out what they are, but once they've been established, he doesn't miraculously get tougher when he's by himself--or at least, not so much tougher that the PCs might notice.

Of course, in that case, why the heck is Dirk sending him after the PCs all by himself? Shouldn't Dirk pick someone with a fighting chance?

I understand what you're getting at; it will seem odd if every ogre the PCs meet who's all by himself has bad-ass solo stats, but every ogre they meet as part of a gang has regular-ogre stats. And if the PCs cut some random ogre out of the pack at Castle Doomfist, I'd probably give him regular-ogre stats and let them shred him... just the way I'd let Doomfist himself shred them if they were insane enough to pick a fight in the throne room. That sort of thing adds to verisimilitude; not every fight should be precisely calibrated to the PCs' level.

But if I'm setting up a key fight by having the ogre come after the PCs, then the ogre in question is going to be a special, extra-tough ogre handpicked for the job.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It all goes back really to my earlier comment, of "The world exists and is consistent as far as the PC eyes can see" so your Ogre, he may be in-flux when not-in the current world, but when it comes down to being used he is set in stone for that scenario by being part of the PC's world.

The players won't have any clue he wasn't always that powerful or that weak, they just know he is what he is.

 

[Pinotage]

If it's available to anybody via feats, it isn't racial flavor, now is it?

That's true. Not technically. Although mechanically it boils down to exactly the same thing. If you assume all kobolds of this kind only take those feats, then 'if it looks and quacks like a duck, it is a duck'. If you view the 4e kobold and a 3e version as black boxes, they're identical. You could just as easily say something like 'Kobold racial training means most kobolds perfer to take feats like Dragon Shield and Swarm Attack'. On the other hand, given that only the Kobold Dragon Shield can take those particular abilities, is it really racial either? I don't think the reason these kobolds are different is only by virtue of race - it's by and large trained abilities specific to the role of the kobold in question.

You ignored the bit about 'marking' the target if it hits, of course. I'm not entirely clear on what a mark does, but that's not 'standard fare'.

I think what's interesting is that you get to shift when you're approached as well as when you're disengaged -- Which can be used to reflect the kobolds' jumpy, flinchy sort of personality..

You could still tie the mark into the granted ability of a feat. Also, if all kobolds are jumpy and flinchy by nature, why do only dragon shield kobolds have the dragon shield ability? It's not a racial ability then, is it?

You must mean "Swarm Fighting", from Complete Warrior.

Something akin to that, yes. I was really thinking an entirely new feat that granted that exact same benefit.

I'd like to see your feat or class ability version of the Archer's Fragile Confidence, or the Wyrmpriest's Incite Faith.

Well, Incite Faith is just a spell. You add a level of cleric, give it a new spell, and you have the Wyrmpriest. The archer's Fragile Confidence is just a feat - something like 'If this creature is attacked, it gains +4 bonus on ranged attacks with a shortbow'. Since I don't know what 'attacked' means in 4e, I'm not sure if this means once you're damaged or if somebody's taken a swipe that hit or just missed. The abilities of the kobolds are certainly mostly new, but they're can still be represented as just feats or spells tied to class levels.

In general, though, higher level creatures will look much the same as lower-level ones, but with more powerful effects. A level 16 monster will have two or three special powers -- just like a level 1 monster -- not a dozen.

I suspected as much.

Pinotage

 

[Wormwood]

Well. Not sure if the above was intended as a very sly put-down . . .

No---not at all!

I've been very frustrated with my inability to grok some of the problems people were having with 4e.

Now, with Wulf's example above, I honestly think I see just where the philosophical divison lies. I'll have to give this whole thing a lot more thought, but for now I'm satisfied that I can understand the 'sim' side more than I was able to before.

 

[Dragonblade]

If they fought Howdrowf in Castle Doomfist, and he had regular ogre stats then, and they have some way to recognize him when he tracks them down, then no, he's not a solo. His stats remain nebulous until it becomes necessary to figure out what they are, but once they've been established, he doesn't miraculously get tougher when he's by himself--or at least, not so much tougher that the PCs might notice.

Of course, in that case, why the heck is Dirk sending him after the PCs all by himself? Shouldn't Dirk pick someone with a fighting chance?

I understand what you're getting at; it will seem odd if every ogre the PCs meet who's all by himself has bad-ass solo stats, but every ogre they meet as part of a gang has regular-ogre stats. And if the PCs cut some random ogre out of the pack at Castle Doomfist, I'd probably give him regular-ogre stats and let them shred him... just the way I'd let Doomfist himself shred them if they were insane enough to pick a fight in the throne room. That sort of thing adds to verisimilitude; not every fight should be precisely calibrated to the PCs' level.

But if I'm setting up a key fight by having the ogre come after the PCs, then the ogre in question is going to be a special, extra-tough ogre handpicked for the job.

Exactly! You summed up my view as well.