D&D 4E 4e Monster Manual excerpt

[M.L. Martin]

No, they can still continue to attack the victim. It's not going to be a big problem for the Succubus to dominate and charm another victim, after the poor schmock has been beaten to a bloody pulp by her fellow gang members of Team Devil.

I think he's referring to the fact that the charm's broken if any of the succubus's allies attack the victim.

That just means that in a short-term situation, she'll wind up using the Kiss to keep a PC (and typically his allies) off her back while her allies mop up the others first, and then turn on her victim; if the situation breaks down (the charmed PC winds up doing too much damage to her allies), a dominate or choosing to kiss another PC should allow her to try and retake control of the situation.

For more long-term scheming, she kisses a victim, and suddenly he can't attack her, she's not attacking him, she's keeping her friends from attacking him, and he finds himself strangely compelled to shield her whenever she's in danger. It's not absolute control, but for most people, it's a crack in their defenses--and the succubus has the Bluff and Diplomacy skills to take full advantage of that. For really important maneuverings, she may even have her 'allies' turn on her.

 

[tomtill]

Although, to be fair, we are assuming that

"(m) Charming Kiss (standard; at-will) * Charm
+14 vs. AC; on a hit, the succubus makes a secondary attack against the same target.
Secondary Attack: +12 vs. Will; the target cannot attack the succubus, and if the target is adjacent to the succubus when the succubus is targeted by a melee or a ranged attack, the target interposes itself and becomes the target of the attack instead. The effects last until the succubus or one of its allies attacks the target or until the succubus dies.

If the target is still under the effect of this power at the end of the encounter, the succubus can sustain the effect indefinitely by kissing the target once per day. The succubus can affect only one target at a time with its charming kiss."

is the only description of Charming Kiss, and

"Succubus Tactics
When exposed for what it is, a succubus can be a deadly foe. It can manipulate the emotions of mortal adversaries, turning them against each other or making them slavishly loyal to it with a mere kiss.

A succubus that is confronted uses dominate on a worthy adversary. It then uses charming kiss on a dominated foe, keeping him or her nearby while it attacks other enemies with its corrupting touch."

is only fluff.


We assume that, because we were taught in 3e that stat block info trumped flavor text.

However, perhaps in 4e, the Tactics section carries equal weight. In that case, Charming Kiss also makes the target "slavishly loyal".

How 'bout that?

 

[DandD]

It doesn't actually say the target is allowed to take ANY actions while under the effect of charm other than interpose himself against attackers. It's just as likely the "if the target is next to the succubus" line means "unless the succubus moves away from him" and not vice versa. As written, I would presume the character is allowed to interpose himself and not do much of anything else. I would also, however, assume he gets a save at the end of each turn, which does not appear in the write-up.

Nah, I don't think there's need for a save-effect, as the 'Charm Kiss' ability doesn't turn you into a brain-dead vegetable that follows every whim of the Succubus. It's a nice sanctuary-like effect with the added ability to turn the victim into a unwilling bodyguard, and nothing more, while the true domination effect, 'Dominate', only lasts one round anyway.

 

[DandD]

For really important maneuverings, she may even have her 'allies' turn on her.

Hehehehe, now that is truely devious, Matthew L. Martin.

Imagine her devil allies all attacking herself, and the poor schmock involuntarily taking the punches for her.

 

[Shazman]

I don't get how you would think the 3.5 stat blocks were more interesting. Can you give some examples, because so far all the 4th edition stat blocks look far, far more interesting and fun to use than any 3.5 one.

3.5 creatures, particularly outsiders, dragons, and powerful undead have many interesting ways of giving the PC's a hard time. Potent spell-like abilities, level drain, ability damage. These things make PC's shiver in their boots, and rightly so. PC's should be afraid of these creatures. If the scariest thing a devil does to you is an attack that does as much damage as a sickly pig farmer with a butter knife, and pushes you back five feet, why should your 21st level fighter be afraid of him and his ten buddies? To top it all off, the 4E stat-blocks read like minis cards, not a true stat-block for a villian. It just screams "This is a miniatures war game! Paly something else if you want an RPG!"

 

[Voss]

We assume that, because we were taught in 3e that stat block info trumped flavor text.

However, perhaps in 4e, the Tactics section carries equal weight. In that case, Charming Kiss also makes the target "slavishly loyal".

How 'bout that?

How about what? Slavishly loyal isn't defined in any sense. Thats pretty much the definition of flavor text.

WotC released an excerpt from the 4e MM, presumably to generate excitement about the new edition. There can be no doubt that, as written, the Charming Kiss power is ambiguous. The second paragraph states that the effect can be sustained by a once a day kissing. What effect? Interposing himself? Why is he still there? I could think of some reasons, I suppose, but all in all it's pretty ambiguous exactly what effect Charming Kiss has. Point is, why is WotC showcasing 4e MM with such ambiguous material? If there is clarifying material in the MM, the least WotC could do is to paraphrase it here.

Can this be right?

What possible reason could WotC have for purposefully showcasing 4e with such ambiguous material?

It isn't ambigiuous. You, I or a small boy named Kevin may or may not like it, but thats a completely different issue, the text is completely clear:
if both attack rolls are successful, then the target may not attack the succubus, and whenever he is adjacent to the succubus, he is targeted by any ranged or melee attack targeted at the succubus.
Thats it. It doesn't do any more than that, and it doesn't do any less than that.

It inflicts no status effect or condition (unlike dominate), but the wording is completely clear- the power has X and Y effects. There is no A, B, C or Z.

The only potential point of ambiguity I can see is if an ally attacks the succubus counting on the victim to interpose himself, that counts as 'attacking the victim'. Technically, I think it does, since the ally ends up attacking the victim, but I can see a vague basis for quibbling about it.


The war devil is nasty. Well, not personally. Personally he's a wimp, who can barely drop a first level wizard in one shot. But he can drop Devilish Transposition, Besieged Foe and Fiendish Tactics in one round. That quickly gets nasty... extra actions are serious power currency in an edition that doesn't seem to give them out as often.

 

[Kunimatyu]

If the scariest thing a devil does to you is an attack that does as much damage as a sickly pig farmer with a butter knife, and pushes you back five feet, why should your 21st level fighter be afraid of him and his ten buddies? To top it all off, the 4E stat-blocks read like minis cards, not a true stat-block for a villian. It just screams "This is a miniatures war game! Paly something else if you want an RPG!"

I'm not sure a PC will feel the same way once they've been speared, dropped prone in exactly the wrong square, then basic attacked by two flanking devils, then get attacked again with special abilities when those two devils take their turns. Oh, and don't forget that those devils will be operating at substantial bonus to attack thanks to being prone and marked by the war devil.

In fact, I rather think it'll be a much more memorable devil encounter, right out of the book, than most 3.5 devil encounters. If it feels too "gamey", that's probably just the result of the devils actually using interesting team tactics that genuinely fit their flavor.

 

[tomtill]

It isn't ambigiuous. You, I or a small boy named Kevin may or may not like it, but thats a completely different issue, the text is completely clear:
if both attack rolls are successful, then the target may not attack the succubus, and whenever he is adjacent to the succubus, he is targeted by any ranged or melee attack targeting at the succubus.
Thats it. It doesn't do any more than that, and it doesn't do any less than that.

It inflicts no status effect or condition (unlike dominate), but the wording is completely clear- the power has X and Y effects. There is no A, B, C or Z.

.

The power additionally reads:

"If the target is still under the effect of this power at the end of the encounter, the succubus can sustain the effect indefinitely by kissing the target once per day"

What effect is being sustained on a day to day basis? The power as written provides no mechanism for the succubus and the target to be anywhere near each other. The target, as you say, has no "condition". There is no effect outside of battle. The "no more, no less" interpretation may be valid, but the second paragraph in the power description suggests other interpretations are also possible.

The tactics section mentions "slavish loyalty" and the Charming Kiss power "keeping him or her nearby". These tactics are not supported by the power description as written.

You see no ambiguity here?

I'm OK with any of the possibilities. But, which possibility is intended is not clear to me. I had hoped that with the new edition, particularly a section that was presented to showcase the new edition, there would be consistency between the stat blocks and the Tactics section.

I like letting the DM/players define the flavor of a mechanic. But this goes beyond that: the power of a succubus changes dramatically depending on whether she can command "slavish loyalty" which includes the battle effect of meat shield, versus just getting a meatshield if she maneuvers everything just right.

 

[Pale Jackal]

In any previous edition of D&D an 8th level difference was a TPK barring extremely unlikely circumstances of luck, tactics, or hopefully for the players both. I'm just looking at this and thinking the power curve has been massively reduced and it could be too big a cut. There was a thread a couple weeks ago where somebody ran 1st level characters against an 11th level monster and I think somewhere around 30-50 KOd it, that's a massive nerf from 3e where an 11th level character could expect to take on hundreds of 1st level characters.

Don't people typically complain monsters and the PoL setting (or any setting?) Allowing "commoners" to take down a high level monster, albeit with great casualties, is refreshing, IMO.

Also, it's now a 30 level scale. A 9 level difference is more akin to a 6 level difference now.

Finally, does it really matter how much power a single level represents? Isn't granularity BETTER as long as the numbers involved (or whatever) don't get ridiculous?

Oh well, I suppose I shouldn't worry about what people nit-pick, as long as it doesn't bother me.

 

[AZRogue]

I don't know. The more I read the entry:

(m) Charming Kiss (standard; at-will) * Charm
+14 vs. AC; on a hit, the succubus makes a secondary attack against the same target.
Secondary Attack: +12 vs. Will; the target cannot attack the succubus, and if the target is adjacent to the succubus when the succubus is targeted by a melee or a ranged attack, the target interposes itself and becomes the target of the attack instead. The effects last until the succubus or one of its allies attacks the target or until the succubus dies.

If the target is still under the effect of this power at the end of the encounter, the succubus can sustain the effect indefinitely by kissing the target once per day. The succubus can affect only one target at a time with its charming kiss.

... the more I'm convinced that Charming Kiss is the name for the FIRST attack. If the Charming Kiss hits, there's a secondary attack that, if it hits, imposes the penalties where the victim interposes himself between incoming attacks. The secondary attack isn't referred to as Charming Kiss at all. It's a secondary effect imposed with a second attack on a victim of a Charming Kiss.

Don't blow a gasket on me, Voss, it's really how I think it can be interpreted. Easily, in fact.