D&D 4E 4e Monster Manual excerpt

[Voss]

The Succubus worths 400 XP.
Do you think 4 level 1 characters could beat her?

Maybe. It would be really tough, however, as dominate and charming kiss are nearly certain to hit. So it would quickly become 2 1st level characters, someone sitting out of the fight (buffing /healing the party if the succubus chooses poorly) vs the succubus and 1 character. The defenses aren't unreachable, but 90 hit points are a lot to chew through.

If they go nova, they can probably do it.


@tomtil-

I still don't see the ambiguity. Not necessarily the best tactics in the tactics section, but not ambiguous. (Charming kiss is better first, since it can last the whole battle, whereas dominate has to be done each round). But forcing someone to approach so they are in range of the kiss does make some sense, especially since they are dominated until the end of her next turn, so depending on the text of dominate, she can order them to not resist the kiss. No ambiguity there.

As for slavishly loyal- it makes people step in front of sword thrusts. That pretty much fits my definition of slavish loyalty. Not ambiguous.

Sustaining the 'can't attack' and 'bodyguard' functions doesn't add ambiguity either. It still does what it does.

As for the rest of the flavor text...

Succubi tempt mortals into performing evil deeds, using their shapechanging abilities to appear as attractive men and women.

Yep. It can do that. shapechange, good bluff/diplomacy.

Although seduction and betrayal are their forte, succubi are also practiced spies and assassins.

Yep. That too.

Succubi serve more powerful devils as scouts, advisors, and even concubines.

Spy type scout, maybe. Doesn't have much on the sneaking. Insight makes it a good judge of character, so I'll buy advisor. Concubine... bluff/diplomacy again plus big charisma score. Fine.

Because of their guile and shapechanging ability, they are frequently chosen to serve as infernal emissaries to important mortals.

Yep. Clearly right.

If the target is still under the effect of this power at the end of the encounter, the succubus can sustain the effect indefinitely by kissing the target once per day. The succubus can affect only one target at a time with its charming kiss.

A bit handwaved, but I suppose you can just make the attack if it comes to that. Someone who knows its nature might resist, but thats reflected well enough in the attack roll. Since it doesn't do anything else, it doesn't seem too powerful.

When exposed for what it is, a succubus can be a deadly foe.

Hypebole, but fine.

It can manipulate the emotions of mortal adversaries,

Sure. I think both powers qualify as emotional manipulation

turning them against each other or

Yep. Dominate does this.

making them slavishly loyal to it with a mere kiss.

I'd say jumping in front of sword thrust qualifies. As does being unable to attack despite knowing its an Evil, soul-corrupting fiend! (if you do).

A succubus that is confronted uses dominate on a worthy adversary.

Yeah...

It then uses charming kiss on a dominated foe,

nothing prevents this.

keeping him or her nearby

well, nothing compels the target to stay nearby. I guess you can call this ambiguous if you really want to. But nothing prevents the succubus from staying nearby, using diplomacy/bluff to convince the target to stay, or just dominating them again and calling them back. (and then kissing them again). But it seems a bit much to raise a stink over 3 little words (five if you really want to count the or and both pronouns, but they signify the same target), and making a big deal out of 'ambiguity'.

while it attacks other enemies with its corrupting touch.

this doesn't contradict either power, so this is fine. Not the best choice, but whatever.

 

[Green Knight]

The Succubus worths 400 XP.
Do you think 4 level 1 characters could beat her?

Hmm. Let's find out.

Ok, the four PC’s in question are Kathra, Skamos, Erais, and Riardon. Let’s assume they’re aware of each other at the start of the combat, and are about 30 feet apart. So rolling initiative, the batting order is as follows.

19 Riardon
18 Succubus
15 Erais
6 Skamos
3 Kathra

ROUND ONE
Using a Careful Attack, Riardon hits and inflicts 3 points on the Succubus.

Having good AC, and realizing that Riardon can circumvent that fairly easily, the Succubus decides to deal with him, first. Flying into an adjacent square, she plants a big wet one right on him, easily beating his AC and Will Defense. Riardon is now unable to attack her, unless she attacks him first or uses her Charming Kiss on another.

Erais is up, he can’t attack, as Riardon would take the hit thanks to the Charming Kiss. So Erais holds off for now, simply moving into base-to-base contact with the Succubus.

Skamos, having nothing he can do, also holds off, maneuvering himself into better position for the next round.

Kathra, also unwilling to hurt Riardon, holds off on attacking, moving into base-to-base with the Succubus.

ROUND TWO
Riardon is up. He can’t attack, and he certainly doesn’t want to remain adjacent to the Succubus and get caught in the crossfire between himself and his teammates. So Riardon uses a Fey Step and teleports 5 squares away and waits out the rest of the combat until the Charming Kiss wears off.

The Succubus is now up. Turning towards Kathra, the Succubus uses Dominate on her. Kathra’s feeble willpower can’t resist, and the Succubus orders Kathra to attack Erais. Kathra does so (I’m assuming just standard attacks, here. No At Wills, Encounter, or Daily powers). Kathra rolls a 16, which is exactly what she needs to hit Erais, and inflicts 13 points of damage on him, knocking him down to 11.

Erais is already in trouble, so he decides to use his Minor Action and cast Healing Word, completely healing himself. Taking into account that it’s pretty much him and Skamos versus Kathra, Erais decides to go all out on the Succubus. With a Free Action, he calls for the Power of Amaunator, and with his Standard Action he prays for a Cascade of Light. Erais rolls a 15 to hit, which falls far short of the Succubus’ Will Defense of 23. However, despite not succeeding, he still inflicts half damage, inflicting 10 points of damage on her.

Skamos, following Erais’ lead, decides to also burn his Daily, and casts a Sleep spell on the Succubus, making sure that only she’s caught in the spell. He rolls an 18, which with a +5 bonus, equals 23. The Succubus is asleep!

Kathra misses her turn, as she’s still Dominated.

ROUND THREE
The Succubus misses her turn, as she’s asleep. She makes her saving throw (rolling a 19), and wakes up.

Erais casts a Lance of Faith against the Succubus, with a +2 bonus thanks to her being Prone. Unfortunately, he still misses, even with the bonus. Not wanting to waste the opportunity, he uses an Action Point and casts it again. This time he rolls a total of 19, but it’s still two points short of her Reflex Defense.

Skamos casts Force Orb at the Succubus, but misses.

Kathra’s turn, and she’s none to happy about being Dominated and forced to attack Erais. Going all-out, she uses her Brute Strike against the Succubus, but misses (Rolled a 1). Burning an Action Point, she uses Brute Strike again (It’s Reliable, so it can be used until it hits), rolling a total of 20, including the bonus for Combat Advantage. Unfortunately, it was still a miss.

ROUND FOUR
The Succubus is Prone, but she’s not going to risk Opportunity Attacks from both Kathra and Erais by getting up, so instead she’s going to try Dominating Kathra, again, from her Prone position. She gets -2 to her attack roll, but even after rolling a 3, she still succeeds (3+12-2 = 13. Kathra’s Will Defense is 12). Kathra’s once again dominated, and once again, the Succubus orders Kathra to attack Erais. Kathra attacks Erais and easily hits him, rolling max damage! Erais takes 15 points of damage, leaving him badly mauled.

Using his last Healing Word for the encounter, Erais heals himself for 13 points of damage. He then attempts to attack the Succubus with Sacred Flame but misses.

Skamos casts a Magic Missile at the Succubus but also misses.

Kathra misses her turn due to being dominated.

ROUND FIVE
The Succubus stands up, incurring an Opportunity Attack from Erais (but not from Kathra). She’s hit, and Erais inflicts 7 points of damage on her. The Succubus now has a bloody lip, and she’s none to happy about it. So she turns to Kathra and dominates her, again. Kathra attacks Erais, hitting him again for 11 damage.

Erais calls down a Sacred Flame on the Succubus, but she steps out of the way easily as he rolls a 4.

Knowing that Erais will be down with one more hit, Skamos decides to throw everything he has left at the Succubus. Using his Action Point, he casts Magic Missile twice at the Succubus, striking her once. The Succubus takes 11 damage.

Kathra is dominated, and so misses her turn.

ROUND SIX
The Succubus is pretty happy with herself at the moment. She Dominates Kathra yet again, and has her attack Erais while she uses a Move action to shift away from Erais. Kathra hits Erais, again, this time rolling a 1. Erais takes 6 points of damage, reducing him to 5.

Having no other option, Erais uses his Standard Action to activate his Second Wind, healing himself for 6, as he prays to Amaunator for Kathra to break free from her domination.

Skamos casts another Magic Missile at the Succubus, but misses.

ROUND SEVEN
Apparently, Amaunator wasn’t taking Erais’ calls that day, as the Succubus rolled a 15 to dominate Kathra. Kathra attacked Erais, again, but apparently Amaunator was listening, as she missed.

Erais shifted back into contact with the Succubus and cast Sacred Flame once again, sadly missing yet again.

Skamos also missed with his Magic Missile.

ROUND EIGHT
The Succubus dominated Kathra yet again. Apparently, there’s only so much that Amaunator can do, as Kathra hit and did 12 points of damage, reducing Erais to -1.

Deciding that discretion is the better part of valor, Skamos decides to hastily retreat from the scene of the battle, using a Move Action to run 8 squares, and a Standard Action to run 8 more squares.

Riardon, realizing all is lost, also decides to leg it.

The Succubus then orders Kathra to behead Erais (Just remembered she has a Warhammer, not an axe. She crushes his brains into a pasty goo, then), before releasing Kathra from her Domination so she can kill her (But not before ordering Kathra to cast away all her weapons and her shield and lay Prone on the ground). While I haven’t rolled for it, one would assume that Kathra’s fate in that instance is pretty much a foregone conclusion. So scratch one Dwarf Fighter and one Human Cleric.

So yeah, put me down as an emphatic "NO!" vote.

 

[AZRogue]

The crux, in my opinion, are those three (five?) words, Voss. Interpreted one way, the PC throws himself in front of her to block attacks, but otherwise is like "crap! get me away from this broad!" and the other has the PC actually STAY by her side, protecting her while she uses her corrupting touch ability, which she can't do AND dominate the PC to keep near her.

I think there's a large difference, tactically, between the PC suffering an effect when adjacent, but obviously aware and actively trying to avoid that effect, and a PC who has been effected with a charm like power that will make him WANT to protect her (he IS throwing himself between her and incoming attacks) and, even more importantly, want to OBEY her (she KEEPS him nearby), at least enough to stay close.

You're right, the Power itself seems pretty cut and dry. The tactics, however, aren't possible without the PC either charmed to some degree beyond the listed effect. I don't really care which, as I can simulate what I want for any given encounter, but I'd really like to know the designers' intent at this point because the discrepancy seems pretty obvious to me.

 

[Victim]

You're right, the Power itself seems pretty cut and dry. The tactics, however, aren't possible without the PC either charmed to some degree beyond the listed effect. I don't really care which, as I can simulate what I want for any given encounter, but I'd really like to know the designers' intent at this point because the discrepancy seems pretty obvious to me.

Just as the charmed PC can move, so can the succubus. So the tactics can still work; they're not exactly scripting out move actions for the devil that would prevent her from acting in that way. Keeping the charmed person nearby could easily refer to her movement after all.

But yeah, there is a big difference between those two conditions.

 

[FourthBear]

Skamos, following Erais’ lead, decides to also burn his Daily, and casts a Sleep spell on the Succubus, making sure that only she’s caught in the spell. He rolls an 18, which with a +5 bonus, equals 23. The Succubus is asleep!

Actually, I believe that the Succubus is merely slowed until her first saving throw (presumably on her following turn). That's when a failure to save would result in falling asleep. Since she made her subsequent saving throw, I think she would keep her action on her next turn.

 

[Green Knight]

Actually, I believe that the Succubus is merely slowed until her first saving throw (presumably on her following turn). That's when a failure to save would result in falling asleep. Since she made her subsequent saving throw, I think she would keep her action on her next turn.

Whoops, you're right. Oh well, it's immaterial, as two of the PC's ended up dying.

 

[AZRogue]

I think we need Voss in the WotC thread on this over on their boards: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1017275&page=3

I mean, I think the entry is unclear but some people are convinced it's written in stone and clear as crystal. I think the power entry and the tactics don't match each other, which is an editing issue. There are quite a few people there, though, that think Charming Kiss acts also like a Charm.

 

[Sojorn]

I think we need Voss in the WotC thread on this over on their boards: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1017275&page=3

I mean, I think the entry is unclear but some people are convinced it's written in stone and clear as crystal. I think the power entry and the tactics don't match each other, which is an editing issue. There are quite a few people there, though, that think Charming Kiss acts also like a Charm.

Mixing up fluff and crunch is dangerous.

That thread hurts my head.

"Look! It says that the kiss makes people loyal! It's in RAW!"

 

[pawsplay]

It's my personal opinion that "fluff" should not be used as an excuse to write text I would call "confusing you can and probably should ignore." Fluff should support the crunch.

 

[Plane Sailing]

War devil - what's up with the ongoing damage?

I'm getting a little frustrated by entries that talk about 'ongoing damage' when there is no indication what its about.

The war devil has this

(m) Trident (standard; recharge 4 5 6 ) * Weapon
Reach 2; +26 vs. AC; 4d4 + 8 damage and ongoing 5 damage (save ends), and the target slides into any square adjacent to the war devil and is knocked prone.

So what does this ongoing damage represent? Does it suggest that the war devil is twisting the trident in the wound? But that wouldn't gibe with the Trident getting 'recharged' and able to use on someone else, so it must be something else... but what?

How can a DM explain what is happening without some kind of extra descriptive hint here? When you tell the player he takes 5 ongoing damage, and they say "from what?", what do you say?

It would have made more sense to me if it had been 5 ongoing damage (save ends or devil chooses to end it), and (recharge when nobody is suffering ongoing damage from it);

That gives the clear sense that the war devil has impaled you with the trident and is giving it a good twisting (and in the meantime might be using his claw), but if he wants to zap someone else with it he has to release you from its tines (or you make your save and wiggle free from the tines and so he is free to use it again).

Regards