D&D 4E 4e Monster Manual excerpt

[Plane Sailing]

This might seem to be aggressive, but keep in mind it's not meant to be insulting.

You're the DM. It's your JOB as DM to make up the fancy little artistic flourishes that liven up the player's day...so make it up. Maybe it's ongoing bleeding. Maybe it's him leaving the Trident impaled in your body. Maybe it's Devil Magic eating away you life force. Use whatever works best for the situation and enhances the description. Does every damage description really need to be spelled out in utmost detail?

No offence taken.

While it is the DMs job to make up the artistic flourishes, we are talking here about the basics of what is causing the guy damage (and why it is ongoing and stops when they save).

If the rules say "it causes infernal wounds that bleed nastily" or "the impaling trident causes continuing damage" you've got an idea about the kind of flourish that makes sense.

The pessimist in me thinks that maybe they didn't describe it so that PCs can't attempt any action (other than the saving throw) to reduce it - they can't choose to staunch their wounds/tear out the harpoon/dive into the water/whatever because it hasn't been defined. From a "gamist" point of view it simplifies things by eliminating the possibility of interactions with other options/spells/xploits etc, but from a "simulationist" point of view it offends my sensibilities by removing a sense of cause and effect.

FWIW I think my 1 minute version in my post above is a more interesting and compelling version of the trident which works from post a game and a simulation point of view

Cheers

 

[Lacyon]

The pessimist in me thinks that maybe they didn't describe it so that PCs can't attempt any action (other than the saving throw) to reduce it - they can't choose to staunch their wounds/tear out the harpoon/dive into the water/whatever because it hasn't been defined.

The optimist in me suggests that this is exactly what is represented by making a Heal check to grant someone an immediate saving throw.

 

[Victim]

What really confuses me about Charming Kiss is that the attack roll vs. AC does nothing, merely allows the succubus to attempt to the secondary attack. The primary attack doesn't have any kind of damage component, nor does it seem to have some kind of keyword (detailed somewhere else) that tells us X happens. Having to make two attack rolls significantly reduces the changes of this ability hitting.

The fact that there is a secondary attack at all makes me think that the primary attack does something that we don't know about. If it doesn't, it would seem that one of her main abilities is rather tough to pull off, and very situational when it does happen. But the stat block is really unclear about all that.

It seems like a sort of touch attack to me. And her attack bonuses seem pretty high - I certainly wouldn't have thought that a succubus would have +14 for melee attacks.

 

[Spatula]

War devil - what's up with the ongoing damage?

I'm getting a little frustrated by entries that talk about 'ongoing damage' when there is no indication what its about.

This bugged me too. The "trident" attack should have some indication in its name about what it actually does. "Wounding trident" or somesuch.

 

[Voss]

I think we need Voss in the WotC thread on this over on their boards: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1017275&page=3

Only if you paid me, as I never really feel that masochistic.
$50/post.

 

[Saitou]

The way I see it, and this involves heavily abstracting Hit Points, is that ongoing damage can represent pain. Not necessarily a single wound, or skin set on fire, or even magically unclosing wounds, but raw pain.

The demon picks you up with his spear and puts you down. It hurts. Even after he attacks, it still hurts. How long do you feel pain? Roll a save every turn. In the emantime, here's some HP damage.

 

[Just Another User]

Makes sense to me.



Yeah, I like how powerful it is and that it will fade after a day. I can imagine the Succubus rogue/assasin using a PC to cover her escape out of a window and all the rest of the players holding back and trying to grapple the guy to the ground, then keeping an eye on him the next day. .

It don't work like that.

It CAN'T work like that.

One of the holy rules of 4E is that PCs must always have something to do, every round, even if it is just rolling a save. A power that remove their free will for 24 hours, with no save? It doesn't exist. Expecially in the heroic tier.What the power does is exactly what is it wrote, you can't attack her,and you interpose if adiacent.

And about the Charm tag, there are other spells power with the charm tag for which the descritpion of a charm person effect could not apply, look at some of the warlock powers or wizard spells, the warlock "curse of the dark dream" is a charm, do you think that if a warlock curse someone with it he start to see him as a friend or something like it?

What I think is interesting is that the kiss is not gender related. Actually it sem that would works even on, for example, constructs, which is at least a bit weird.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The way I see it, and this involves heavily abstracting Hit Points, is that ongoing damage can represent pain. Not necessarily a single wound, or skin set on fire, or even magically unclosing wounds, but raw pain.

The demon picks you up with his spear and puts you down. It hurts. Even after he attacks, it still hurts. How long do you feel pain? Roll a save every turn. In the emantime, here's some HP damage.

But unless they say that, it doesn't make sense that this causes ongoing pain and other things don't.

'exception based design' or not, I want things to *make sense*

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But unless they say that, it doesn't make sense that this causes ongoing pain and other things don't.

'exception based design' or not, I want things to *make sense*

I agree, there should be some flavour text associated with it. On the other hand, remember the Gold Wyvern discussions? Some people really don't like flavour text in their rules. Personally, I liked the idea of giving feats and powers a little more evocative - even if specific or setting implying - names, in hope of sparking a little more imagination and immersion. You're not a acid-ice spellcaster, you're a follower of the Emerald Frost tradition!

Anyway, what to do if the rules don't provide the flavor text them self?
a) Do not use the rule (ranging from: don't use the power to don't use the monster to don't use the whole ruleset)
b) Find your own fluff and add it to the power.

 

[med stud]

But unless they say that, it doesn't make sense that this causes ongoing pain and other things don't.

'exception based design' or not, I want things to *make sense*

Make a ruling of your own and stick to it. I don't think your players will complain. Since the War Devil seems to stab someone with the trident, lift the victim and slam it to the ground, I don't think bleeding is out of line.