D&D 4E 4e Monster Manual excerpt

[HeavenShallBurn]

It's not so bad if an entire 1st level party manages to barely kill 1.

In any previous edition of D&D an 8th level difference was a TPK barring extremely unlikely circumstances of luck, tactics, or hopefully for the players both. I'm just looking at this and thinking the power curve has been massively reduced and it could be too big a cut. There was a thread a couple weeks ago where somebody ran 1st level characters against an 11th level monster and I think somewhere around 30-50 KOd it, that's a massive nerf from 3e where an 11th level character could expect to take on hundreds of 1st level characters.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

That did feel odd to me, but I guess AC can work in that, she needs to kiss flesh, so things like armour, clothing, blocking, etc. that would prevent this would count as AC.

true.... OMG watch out Hennet shes after you!!!

 

[mhacdebhandia]

That did feel odd to me, but I guess AC can work in that, she needs to kiss flesh, so things like armour, clothing, blocking, etc. that would prevent this would count as AC.

Either that, or it's as simple as saying that she needs to grab you, even if only for a moment, to make sure the kiss takes effect. Very few people would just lean in if they wanted to forcibly kiss someone.

 

[DarenCommons]

Nine Hells

I really dig the description of the Nine Hells.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

It's interesting that the Succubus is a controller.

Either it means something different with monsters than it does with PCs or there's a tradeoff between hitting lots of people with damage and hitting individuals with long term effects.

 

[AllisterH]

I have to say that their examples are... uninspiring. I don't really see any interesting powers at all and what they do have are anemic. I have the feeling that we may discover in their attempt to fix the math and extend the sweet spot they've compressed the power curve too much. A level 8 or 9 monster should wipe the floor with a party of lvl 1 pcs barring extraordinary luck or tactics.

WHY?

You're equating the most important thing with the monster as being its level. That isn't what the main thing you should look at. You should be looking at its XP VALUE. THAT to me, is the main thing a DM should be looking at when thinking about encounters.

Look at the example of the pre-gens not at the level of the monster they can tackle, but the total xp value of the challenge and thus a succubus should not be able to beat down an entire party of 6 PCs.

Now, does this mean the scale is flattened entirely. Not entirely since I imagine a level 5 PC will simply obliterate a level 1 PC. The level 5 PC will just be plain ass better but the difference is that the new XP scale basically says, "Numbers matter". Similarly, the level 9 succubs by itself with its basic attack could probably kill any 1st level PC without missing a beat.

PReviously, in D&D, if you were say level X, a monster that you met 5 levels before and defeated would not be a good challenge since you're defenses/offenses would be so high that irrespective of the number of monsters thrown at you, said monster would be ineffective. Conversely, a monster 5 levels above you would simply curbstomp you into the ground no questions asked.

4E is simply increasing the level range of effective monsters which is a good thing.

Another benefit is that it allows for varied PC levels. Which not only works well for players but also neatly handles the issue of followers/companions/NPCs. A level 5 party doesn't have to worry that just by the monster breathing on a level 3 follower that said follower will die and at the same time, you can have a high level NPC (with respect to the party) and not have to either a) have a monster that only the NPC can deal with which would completely trample the party and b) have a monster that the NPC could deal with in their sleep.

Thus, you can have a couple of level 2 NPCs, 5 level PCs all following a level 9 NPC and construct QUICKLY (which to me as a DM the biggest appeal) a fun/decent challenge without worrying too much about making it either too easy or too hard.

 

[Jack99]

In any previous edition of D&D an 8th level difference was a TPK barring extremely unlikely circumstances of luck, tactics, or hopefully for the players both. I'm just looking at this and thinking the power curve has been massively reduced and it could be too big a cut. There was a thread a couple weeks ago where somebody ran 1st level characters against an 11th level monster and I think somewhere around 30-50 KOd it, that's a massive nerf from 3e where an 11th level character could expect to take on hundreds of 1st level characters.

It's not a nerf, it's a fix as us MMORPG's say..

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Either that, or it's as simple as saying that she needs to grab you, even if only for a moment, to make sure the kiss takes effect. Very few people would just lean in if they wanted to forcibly kiss someone.

Grabbing though would be vs. Reflex, since to grab you need to first catch.

As for the power-curve conversation, I think a major difference is that level isn't as important as numbers.

Essentially view it like this a well-trained fighter could take a thug easily, however a gang of thugs would easily take a fighter.

So it is thus numbers not so much one-monsters individuals strength that is a determining factor, thus why only Solos are supposed to be faced by themselves.

 

[pawsplay]

So if a succubus wants to make someone build her a house, she has to make a dominate attack every round?

Kissing people in combat.... good idea? It doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I really dig the description of the Nine Hells.

Yeah, I really like it myself. They're not "layers" anymore, but they've still got their distinct feels - and I love the idea of expeditions delving ever downwards through each layer, trying to make their way from Avernus down to a deeper realm.