D&D 4E 4e Monster Manual excerpt

[HeavenShallBurn]

You're equating the most important thing with the monster as being its level. That isn't what the main thing you should look at. You should be looking at its XP VALUE. THAT to me, is the main thing a DM should be looking at when thinking about encounters.

Thing is that's exactly what you would have looked at in every previous edition of D&D, level has always been more important than numbers once you get to a difference of 5 or more.

the difference is that the new XP scale basically says, "Numbers matter".

I'm pointing out that this is a flat reversal of one of the features of D&D that has been constant for decades. An important element to the feel of the game, that unlike most other rpgs individual prowess matters far more than numbers.

PReviously, in D&D, if you were say level X, a monster that you met 5 levels before and defeated would not be a good challenge since you're defenses/offenses would be so high that irrespective of the number of monsters thrown at you, said monster would be ineffective. Conversely, a monster 5 levels above you would simply curbstomp you into the ground no questions asked. 4E is simply increasing the level range of effective monsters which is a good thing.

Ultimately I think we just come at the game from totally different angles, that sort of level disparity should invite a curbstomp. Increasing the range of effective monsters also means you're decreasing the visible evidence of increasing power. It's an important part of the feel that at 2nd level the PCs have a rough time fighting twice their number in orcs but at 14th level they can lay waste to a horde with thousands of orcs in it and fight dragons and liches and monstrosities from other planes the way they once did orcs and goblins.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

So if a succubus wants to make someone build her a house, she has to make a dominate attack every round?

Betcha there's a ritual for long-term domination effects.

 

[Professor Phobos]

Betcha there's a ritual for long-term domination effects.

Also if she's any good at the whole "succubus" thing, she'll use conventional manipulation to worm her way into the good graces of a target so that they damn themselves willingly.

 

[mach1.9pants]

In any previous edition of D&D an 8th level difference was a TPK barring extremely unlikely circumstances of luck, tactics, or hopefully for the players both. I'm just looking at this and thinking the power curve has been massively reduced and it could be too big a cut. There was a thread a couple weeks ago where somebody ran 1st level characters against an 11th level monster and I think somewhere around 30-50 KOd it, that's a massive nerf from 3e where an 11th level character could expect to take on hundreds of 1st level characters.

My BOLD: thank the creators! What a pile of rubbish 3E was for that.
oh and I imagine succubi try to avoid combat as a rule/goal. They can fight but are not best at it.
"Allow me to present Sir 'hesnotwhatheseems' " smacker on the cheek or hand. Off we go to control the barony and no detect evil to foil my plans this edition mwahahaha!

 

[Imban]

Charm no longer
1) sucks
2) is painfully vague requiring the DM and the player of the charmed character to spend a half hour arguing about what the PC is obliged to do.

That's pretty worthy.

The Succubus's Charm actually seems really weird to me. It seems better to use it on an NPC ally, who will stand next to you and tank for you. Against PCs, it just makes them move away from you if both attacks hit, dropping it to "situationally useful at best" territory.

Dominating someone, then forcing him to move up to you, then you kissing him is such a weird series of events. It's totally in-theme for a succubus, but I don't think it's tactically sounds.

 

[FadedC]

In any previous edition of D&D an 8th level difference was a TPK barring extremely unlikely circumstances of luck, tactics, or hopefully for the players both. I'm just looking at this and thinking the power curve has been massively reduced and it could be too big a cut. There was a thread a couple weeks ago where somebody ran 1st level characters against an 11th level monster and I think somewhere around 30-50 KOd it, that's a massive nerf from 3e where an 11th level character could expect to take on hundreds of 1st level characters.

In previous editions a CR 8 monster was intended to challenge a party of 8th level characters all by itself. In 4th it's only intended to challenge a party of 8th level characters in equal numbers. This would be the equivelent of a CR 4 monster in 3rd.

And yes I can point to quite a few CR 4 monsters that would have a reasonable chance of being defeated by a first level party. And even more CR 11 monsters that could be easily defeated by an 8th level party.

If we are going back further then 3rd edition, then back in my 1e days I frequently saw 1st level characters with good strength and good AC defeat monsters 5 levels higher then them in 1 on 1 combat.

 

[hong]

The Succubus's Charm actually seems really weird to me. It seems better to use it on an NPC ally, who will stand next to you and tank for you. Against PCs, it just makes them move away from you if both attacks hit, dropping it to "situationally useful at best" territory.

Dominating someone, then forcing him to move up to you, then you kissing him is such a weird series of events. It's totally in-theme for a succubus, but I don't think it's tactically sounds.

If a succubus is ever in a situation where it has people hitting it with sharp sticks, it has failed.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

If a succubus is ever in a situation where it has people hitting it with sharp sticks, it has failed.

I actually could see a Succubi in battle, being flanked by brutes who are keeping the rest of the party at bay, while it casually strolls up to a PC (probably under dominate or say fear) huddling in the corner and giving him/her a kiss on a check.

 

[AllisterH]

Thing is that's exactly what you would have looked at in every previous edition of D&D, level hasalways been more important than numbers once you get to a difference of 5 or more..

That's not entirely true. Pre-3E, monsters only had a XP value and that was the only way to tell whether or not a monster was appropriate. You never went by HD as a judge.

I'm pointing out that this is a flat reversal of one of the features of D&D that has been constant for decades. An important element to the feel of the game, that unlike most other rpgs individual prowess matters far more than numbers...

Not true again either. For the non-magical classes, levels were NEVER that big a jump. A level 10 fighter with non-magical gear is weaker than a level 20 fighter with non-magical gear. However, 5 level 10 fighters I'd give great odds against the level 20 fighter and this is true across ALL editions of D&D for the non-magic users.

Furthermore, this still is true in 4E since unlike say GURPS where a 250 pt build can still lose half the time to a 150 pt build, a level 5 PC is going to wipe the floor with a level 1 PC.

It was MAGIC and Spellcasting that didn't operate on a linear scale where a level 20 mage is pretty much immune to a HUNDRED level 10 mages.

Ultimately I think we just come at the game from totally different angles, that sort of level disparity should invite a curbstomp. Increasing the range of effective monsters also means you're decreasing the visible evidence of increasing power. It's an important part of the feel that at 2nd level the PCs have a rough time fighting twice their number in orcs but at 14th level they can lay waste to a horde with thousands of orcs in it and fight dragons and liches and monstrosities from other planes the way they once did orcs and goblins.

You might be slightly exaggerating here. The TIER system is what I think ensures that. On the 4E Monster boards at WOTC people have run mock battles between creatures of different levels (but equal xp value in total) and there IS a breaking point. Basically, if you're 10 levels above, no amount of luck will help as the inherent defenses are just too much. Even at 8 or 9 difference, the battles drag on too long given how often the PC hits etc.

For example, people have done the pit fiend versus kobolds and there literally is nothing the kobolds can do to touch the pit fiend even though supposedly X amount of kobolds equal one pit fiend.

So, as an aside, does this make 4E less of a superhero game that others were worried about if (and we still haven't seen what a 5th level PC can actually do) a 5th level party still has to run away from kobolds?

 

[Fiendish Dire Weasel]

So if a succubus wants to make someone build her a house, she has to make a dominate attack every round?

Kissing people in combat.... good idea? It doesn't seem like a good idea.

No, no. She Dominates them once, to bring them into range/submit to her kiss. Then she only needs to kiss them once a day (which they would likely willingly do once charmed) to keep them.