D&D 4E 4e Monsters in a 3x Game?

[Primitive Screwhead]

As a GM, I really like the 4e monster design. One simple stat-block that can pretty much fit on a 3x5 card instead of a complex mess that references half a dozen other sources...

I am currently running a 3.5 campaign that wont convert to 4e for quite some time...altho I will be pulling in some 4e-like house rules.

So my question for the smart folks out there...what would need to be done, if anything, to use a 4e monster in a 3.x game?

 

[Knightfall]

As a GM, I really like the 4e monster design. One simple stat-block that can pretty much fit on a 3x5 card instead of a complex mess that references half a dozen other sources...

I am currently running a 3.5 campaign that wont convert to 4e for quite some time...altho I will be pulling in some 4e-like house rules.

So my question for the smart folks out there...what would need to be done, if anything, to use a 4e monster in a 3.x game?

While I, personally, don't like the new monster format, I have considered trying to convert 4E monsters to 3E. However, I'd probably have to buy the new core books in order to do so, and I've decided not to do that.

I'm disappointed that WotC hasn't provided an online PDF designed to convert 3E design to 4E design. If they had, then I could use it in the other direction.

I've tried to "eyeball" it, but that just doesn't seem to work. Without any real sense of Hit Dice, you'd be simply making a shot in the dark, which is, I think, the point of 4E design. WotC doesn't want anything designed for 4E to be converted back to 3E. (I cannot blame them for deciding this, but, personally, I don't have to like it.)

 

[Celebrim]

As a GM, I really like the 4e monster design. One simple stat-block that can pretty much fit on a 3x5 card instead of a complex mess that references half a dozen other sources...

I can sorta understand this. With high level monsters, they often have a ton of feats which bury easily forgotten situational abilities in outside references.

On the other hand, here are a few stat-blocks cut directly from some of my adventure notes:

The Dweller in the Pool: Large Outsider; HD 6d8+6; hp 39; Init +0; Spd 20 ft. Swim 20 ft.; AC 17 (-1 size, +8 natural); Atk 2 tentacle rakes +3 melee touch (1d6), bite -2 melee (1d4); Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with tentacle); SA Improved grab, constrict 1d6, disease, smite good; SQ Scent, Resistance 5 (Cold, Electricity, Fire, Acid), DR 1/-; AL NE; SV Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +6; Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 6.
Skills and Feats: Hide +5*, Listen +6, Spot +9, Swim +8; Alertness, Aquatic.

Grave Wardens (6): CR 2; Medium-Size Undead; HD 4d12; hp 26; Init +5 (+1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative); Spd 30 ft.; AC 21 (+ 1 Dex, +3 natural, +7 armor); Atk 1 longsword +2 melee (1d8); SA Choking Dust SQ Undead, immunities, Skeleton Immunities; AL NE; SV Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +4; Str 10, Dex 12, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 11. Skills and Feats: Improved Initiative.

Choking Dust: Each round that a character strikes a Grave Warden with a melee weapon of 5’ reach or less (provided they would have succeeded in a melee touch attack), or is grappled with or bull rushed or overrun by a Grave Warden, or within 5’ of a Grave Warden when it falls, the character must make a Fort save vs. DC 15 (+1 per previous round choking) or choke, wheeze, and cough (treat as stunned). A character who chokes for two or more consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of subdual damage per round. Choking Dust provides a Grave Warden with a 20% concealment bonus each round that it is active.

Barrow Wight: Medium-Size Undead; HD 8d12; hp 52; Init +5 (+1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative); Spd 30 ft.; AC 18 (+1 Dex, +4 natural, +3 armor); Atk Slam +7 melee (1d4+3 and energy drain); SA Energy drain* SQ Undead; AL LE; SV Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +7; Str 16, Dex 12, Con -, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15.
Skills and Feats: Climb +5, Hide +10, Listen +10, Move Silently +13, Search +7, Spot +10; Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative.

Advanced Griffin, Female: Large Magical Beast; HD 10d10+40; hp 95; Init +2 (Dex); Spd 30 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC 17 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural); Atk Bite +11 melee (2d4+5), 2 claws +5 melee (1d4+2); Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. bite); SA Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 1d6+2; SQ Scent; AL N; SV Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +4; Str 20, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 8.
Skills and Feats: Jump +8, Listen +8, Spot +13*, Alertness, Combat Reflexes.

Monster: Hobgoblin Ftr2 (8): CR 2; Medium-Size Humanoid (Goblinoid); HD 2d10+2; hp 17; Init +2 (Dex); Spd 30 ft.; AC 17 (+2 Dex, +5 chain mail); Atk Longsword +2 melee (1d8), or Longbow +5 ranged (1d8); SQ Darkvision 60 ft.; AL LE; SV Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +0; Str 11, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Skills and Feats: Handle Animal +2, Hide +1, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +3; Alertness, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Possessions: Chain mail, Longsword, Longbow, 20 masterwork arrows, 3-12 g.p.

They are assisted by two pet hell hounds.

Monster: Hell Hound (2): CR 3; Medium-Size Outsider (Evil, Fire, Lawful); HD 4d8+4; hp 22; Init +5 (+1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative); Spd 40 ft.; AC 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural); Atk Bite +5 melee (1d8+1); SA Breath weapon; SQ Scent, fire subtype; AL LE; SV Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +4; Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 6. Skills and Feats: Hide +11, Listen +5, Move Silently +13, Spot +7*, Wilderness Lore +0*; Improved Initiative, Track.

Breath Weapon (Su): Cone of fire, 30 feet, every 2d4 rounds; damage 1d4+1, Reflex half DC 13. The fiery breath also ignites any flammable materials within the cone. Hell hounds can use their breath weapon while biting.
Fire Subtype (Ex): Fire immunity, double damage from cold except on a successful save.

I can get quite a bit of detail onto a 3x5 card.

So my question for the smart folks out there...what would need to be done, if anything, to use a 4e monster in a 3.x game?

Take a comparable 3.5 monster stat block. Add to it some movement based powers. Ignore whatever existing powers, ability or details you consider irrelevant.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I've actually looked at it and I want to test just using straight up 4e monsters in a 3.5e game just to see how it works. The numbers seem even, but you would have to introduce healing surges, action points, and defense bonuses to make it fair.

 

[hvg3akaek]

I am also wondering what sort of "level" : "CR" change will be required.

Clearly, a level 1 monster is more than a CR1 (as heroes in 4E are much stronger than 3.5E) But is a level 20 monster harder than a CR20?


I will (hopefully) be running the 4E young blue dragon against my group tonight, who are still using 3.5E characters. That's one way to test it out, i guess!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I can sorta understand this. With high level monsters, they often have a ton of feats which bury easily forgotten situational abilities in outside references.

On the other hand, here are a few stat-blocks cut directly from some of my adventure notes:











I can get quite a bit of detail onto a 3x5 card.



Take a comparable 3.5 monster stat block. Add to it some movement based powers. Ignore whatever existing powers, ability or details you consider irrelevant.

I've made similar stat blocks in the past. But 4E stat blocks are still way more readable.

Since adapting the monster creation rules itself from 4E is probably impossible, the next best thing to do is to omit everything you don't plan to use.
- Pretend that all Buff spells of the monster that last reasonably long are cast before combat. Do just include them in the complete statistics.
- Remove all spells that the monster will not cast in combat due to ineffectiveness. Low level spells, spells with casting time longer then one fullround action. All damage-dealing spells that are weaker then its innate attacks. Try to reduce your list to no more then 4-5 spells.
- Remove any notes of feats that don't directly affect your options in your encounter. Simplify Power Attack or Combat Expertises (set either only one value, or two possible ones).
- Write down only skill modifiers likely to affect the encounter (If you don't use Diplomacy or Intimidate on PCs, ignore them. Appraise, Craft, Knowledge skills can all be ignored.)
- Note down a reference to the real stat block so you find it quickly if you ever need it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am also wondering what sort of "level" : "CR" change will be required.

Clearly, a level 1 monster is more than a CR1 (as heroes in 4E are much stronger than 3.5E) But is a level 20 monster harder than a CR20?


I will (hopefully) be running the 4E young blue dragon against my group tonight, who are still using 3.5E characters. That's one way to test it out, i guess!

I am not sure if there can ever be hard rule, but a first guess is something around Level/2 + 2. +1 for Elite, +3 for Solo, -3 for Minion.

I think you'll get attack numbers approximately in the ballpark of 3E, but it's by no way exact or guaranteed.

 

[hvg3akaek]

Actually, for the minions, I just left them at the same CR as they would be normally, but gave only 1/4 the XP. That seemed easy enough. Didn't get to try out the 4E dragon on my 3E party, but did use minions, which seemed to work well. Will keep using minions!

 

[arcanaman]

It would just be easier to use 4E

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It would just be easier to use 4E

Obviously. But that doesn't help someone that wants to use them in 3E. I would file this under the less helpful suggestions.