4E Muscles, BD&D Bones

[Lanefan]

Lots to catch up on here...

I think 2E covered this in 4 or 5 pages.

Alright then. I'll take your word for that; I know 2e in very broad strokes but nothing much specific, and even then only from the core books (I ignored most of the crunch bloat that came later while gobbling up the settings).

Rather you want to know, fairly easily, who is an experienced horseback rider and who simply points the horse in the direction they want to go (based on background alone).

Right now we beat it even further down: for swimming, boating and riding we roll a random d10 during roll-up to see how good you are at each one based on your upbringing and-or pre-adventuring activities; minor adjustments apply for race*, and the one class to whom horsemanship really matters (Cavalier) gets a bonus on the riding roll.

* - we have also decided that the Dwarven word for "boat" is the same as the Dwarven word for "vomit".

To be fair, one of my objectives to creating a skill/nwp/trait mechanic is that, IMO, the thief doesn't really have a proper niche. This is probably because my D&D games rarely venture into a dungeon, but I see one of the advances in 3e/4e is the realization that all character classes need to have a way of being effective in combat.

Keep in mind that something that was proposed earlier - I think it was in this thread - is that treasure, not combat, will be the prime source of x.p. In 3e-4e the focus was-is on combat as that's the only way PCs can advance as per RAW. Here, if the focus moves to treasure, you can shift focus away from combat somewhat and thus aren't forced to design everything around it.

Also, another gem from 1e: x.p. for a successfully avoided encounter are to be given as if the encounter was defeated (the risk must be known and steps must be taken to avoid it; getting past an opponent you never know about doesn't count). Here's where your Thieves and sneaks can shine!

I see your concern -- it is certainly easier to create an overly useful trait than it is an overly useful profession. I just think that "blacksmith" (to pick a canonical example) just isn't useful enough to be worth representing in the rules. I would much rather have NWPs/Professions/Traits represent abilities that come up.

It doesn't have to be hard-wired into the rules to be relevant. Having a competent blacksmith in the field party can be useful even if only because she can hammer the dents out of everyone's armour at day's end and not make a mess of it. Someone who was a jeweller can appraise gems. An engineer can do all sorts of useful things, believe me, I played one! And so forth...

Lan-"Dwarves view boats much the same way as I view horses"-efan

 

[Dausuul]

MAGIC-USERS

Core Stats

• Magic-users start with 3 life points and 4 hit points. Their hit points increase by 1 per level. Their life points increase by 1 at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, and 36.
• Magic-users start with an attack bonus of +4. Their attack bonus improves at levels 5, 9, 13, 21, and 29.
• Magic-users start with a spellcasting bonus of +8. Their spellcasting bonus improves at levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 17, 23, 29, 35.
• Magic-users start with AC 9, MR 17. Their defenses improve at levels 4, 7, 10, 13, 19, 25, 31.

Class Features

Weapon Proficiency. Magic-users are proficient with staffs, daggers, clubs, and crossbows. They suffer a -5 penalty on attack rolls with all other weapons.

Spellcasting. A magic-user can cast any spell in her spellbook (see "Spellbook" below), but except for cantrips, she can only cast a limited number of them before resting. The magic-user has a number of spell "slots," as laid out in the Spells Table. Each time she casts a non-cantrip spell, she expends a slot of the appropriate spell level. To recover spell slots, she must spend 1d6+1 nights resting in safe and comfortable surroundings--not camped in a dungeon or wilderness! (A magic-user who needs to recover spells in the field can use the arcana spell.)

To cast a spell, the magic-user must have both hands free; she can hold a staff, rod, wand, or dagger in one hand, but nothing else. She must also be able to speak clearly, if not loudly. Magic-users can cast spells while wearing armor if they wish, though few do so (most prefer mage armor to a lot of burdensome metal).

Spellbook. A magic-user starts out with 6 cantrips and 2 1st-level spells in her spellbook. One of these spells is always arcana, and the player chooses the rest. (Mage armor and magic missile are common choices.) Magic-users learn new spells in three ways:

• Each time a magic-user gains access to a new level of spells, she can choose 1 new spell of that level and add it to her spellbook.
• When a magic-user comes across a new spell in her adventuring, she can make an Intelligence check to add it to her spellbook, at a DC of 20 plus the spell level. If she fails the check, the magic-user can try again after she gains a level.
• A magic-user can try to research a spell—either choosing one from the standard list or creating her own. Spell research requires an initial investment of 100 gp per spell level to obtain books, scrolls, and experimental reagents. The magic-user then studies these materials and performs experiments in her free time. The next time she gains a level, she can make an Intelligence check at a DC of 25 plus the spell level. If the check succeeds, the spell is researched and she adds it to her spellbook. If it fails, she must start again or give up. A magic-user can only research one spell at a time.

A magic-user is limited in the number of spells she can have in her spellbook; see the table below. A magic-user who loses her spellbook cannot learn new spells (including the ones granted by gaining levels!) until she recovers it or scribes a new one. For each level of spells the magic-user can cast, scribing a new spellbook takes 1d6 days and costs 100 gp. Thus, a 9th-level magic-user would need 4d6 days and 400 gp to replace her spellbook.

Spellcasting is very difficult and requires constant practice. Each time she gains a level, a magic-user can declare that she is "neglecting" one spell in her spellbook. She crosses that spell off her list and stops using it. If she has not used the spell by the next time she gains a level, she has forgotten how to cast the old spell and can learn a new one in its place. The old spell is effectively gone from her spellbook, although it is not actually erased; if she wishes, the magic-user can re-learn the neglected spell later as if she were learning a new one.

Spell Components. Some spells, mainly utility and powerful attack spells, require components. There are two types of components, these being minor (available for purchase in most cities and towns) and major (found only through adventuring). Each spell indicates what type and number of component it requires.

Spells Table: The number before the slash is the number of spells the magic-user can cast of that level before resting. The number after the slash is the maximum number she can have in her spellbook. A magic-user can cast an unlimited number of cantrips.

....................................... SPELL LEVEL ........................
M-U LEVEL . Cantrip . 1 .... 2 .... 3 .... 4 .... 5 .... 6 .... 7 .... 8 .... 9
1.............*/6....3/3.... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
2.............*/6....4/4.... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
3.............*/6....4/4....3/2.... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
4.............*/6....5/4....3/3.... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
5.............*/6....5/5....4/3.... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
6.............*/6....6/5....4/3....3/2.... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
7.............*/6....6/5....5/3....3/3.... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
8.............*/6....6/5....5/4....4/3.... - .... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
9.............*/6....6/5....6/4....4/3....3/2.... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
10............*/6....6/5....6/4....5/3....3/3.... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
11............*/6....6/5....6/4....5/4....4/3.... - .... - .... - .... - .... -
12............*/6....6/5....6/4....6/4....4/3....3/1.... - .... - .... - .... -
13............*/6....6/5....6/4....6/4....5/3....3/2.... - .... - .... - .... -
14............*/6....6/5....6/4....6/4....5/4....4/2.... - .... - .... - .... -
15............*/6....6/6....6/4....6/4....6/4....4/2.... - .... - .... - .... -
16............*/6....6/6....6/4....6/4....6/4....5/3.... - .... - .... - .... -
17............*/6....6/6....6/4....6/4....6/4....5/3....3/1.... - .... - .... -
18............*/6....6/6....6/4....6/4....6/4....6/3....3/2.... - .... - .... -
19............*/6....6/6....6/4....6/4....6/4....6/4....4/2.... - .... - .... -
20............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....4/2.... - .... - .... -
21............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....5/3.... - .... - .... -
22............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....5/3....3/1.... - .... -
23............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....6/3....3/2.... - .... -
24............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....6/4....4/2.... - .... -
25............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....4/2.... - .... -
26............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....5/3.... - .... -
27............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....5/3....3/1.... -
28............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....6/3....3/2.... -
29............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....6/4....4/2.... -
30............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....4/2.... -
31............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....5/3.... -
32............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....5/3....3/1
33............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....6/3....3/2
34............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....6/4....4/2
35............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....4/2
36............*/6....6/6....6/5....6/5....6/5....6/5....6/4....6/4....6/4....5/3

Spells

Not going to put the entire spell list here (I haven’t yet written most of it, anyway), but a sampling of basic combat-type magic:

• Arcana: Cantrip; 1-hour ritual allows the wizard to recover spell slots at a cost of spell components. (Component cost depends on what level of slots you want to get back; much cheaper to get just your 1st-level spells than to get everything from 1st to 9th).
• Mage Armor: Cantrip, grants +4 AC (not cumulative with armor).
• Spark: Cantrip, can ignite flammable objects or deal 1d3 fire damage within 5 feet. (Cantrips are utility tricks, but many have some combat application. Attacking with a cantrip is comparable to using a weapon for a magic-user—more accurate, less damaging.)
• Mage Hand: Cantrip, can move small objects within 30 feet. Can be used to throw an object (spellcasting roll vs. AC) for 1d2 damage.
• Magic Missiles: 1st-level spell. Creates 3 magical darts, plus 1 for each odd-numbered level beyond first (maximum 7 darts at 9th level). Throw one dart per round as a standard action; cannot be resisted (auto-hit, in other words), 1d4+1 force damage. (The "cast spell, then attack with it for several rounds" model will be typical for 1st- and some 2nd-level attack spells.)
• Fireball: 3rd-level spell. Deals 2d8 fire damage in a 20-foot radius (half damage if resisted).
• Meteor Swarm: 9th-level spell. Shoots four fireballs, each one dealing 4d6 fire damage in a 10-foot radius (half damage if resisted). All must land within 30 feet of a single central point, and no more than two fireballs can overlap at any one point.
• Energy Drain: 9th-level spell. Touch one enemy in melee, making a spellcasting roll versus the target's AC. If you hit, the target loses 1d8+8 life points instantly. (One of those rare exceptions to the impenetrability of hit points...)

 

[Dausuul]

Gonna mostly quit posting exact stats since I'm constantly tinkering with those, but on to the thief. (I've turned the fighter and the magic-user into proper class writeups, along with a section on stats. When I get all the classes done, I'll convert it to .PDF and post it while I start on combat rules.)

THIEVES

Agility: Thieves have base AC equal to or a bit better than fighters, but they get -1 AC when wearing chain and -2 AC when wearing plate. (Thus, while chain and plate are still a net AC gain, the gain is small. Plus, backstab and many thief talents don't work in armor heavier than leather.)

Backstab: Backstab is an attack at +5 to hit that deals set damage, regardless of the weapon used. Currently the damage starts at 1d6+8 (level 1) and scales up to 4d6+60 (level 36). This is enough to pretty reliably one-shot another thief of the same level. I did a couple of test runs with thief + 2 fighters versus 3 fighters, and each side scored one victory, so I think this is in the right ballpark. Need to do some more trial runs though.

Thief Talents: You start out with 6 picks from the thief talent list, and get another pick at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 18, 24, 30, and 36. You can use your picks to choose a talent at the basic level, or improve an existing talent to advanced. Starting at level 12, you can also improve advanced talents to expert.

I plan on having about a dozen thief talents to choose from. Note that in most cases, no roll is necessary to use the talent. Here are the ones I've got so far:

• Hide in Shadows: In torchlight or moonlight, you can hide with only shadows for cover. (You still have to roll Dexterity to hide.) Advanced: Twilight or bright lamplight. Expert: Broad daylight.
• Climb Walls: If you start on the ground, you can take a move action to climb your full speed up a rough surface (e.g., unmortared stone). Further climbing is handled normally. Advanced: Mortared brick. Expert: Smooth stone or ice.
• Sense Traps: You can sense traps and ambushes, even in the absence of visible clues. When such danger threatens, the DM rolls 1d20+5 versus DC 20. On a success, you receive a warning at least 1 round before the trap is sprung. Advanced: 1d20+10. Expert: 1d20+15.
• Read Languages: When examining written materials, you can get the gist even if you don't know the language. You understand 1d10x10% of any piece of writing. You can identify magical symbols up to 3rd level without triggering them, and use scrolls of up to 3rd level. Advanced: Scrolls and symbols up to 6th level. Expert: All scrolls and symbols.
• Open Locks: In 1d6 minutes, you can pick a normal lock. Advanced: High-quality lock. Expert: Magical lock or seal.
• Escape: In 1d6 minutes, you can escape from simple bonds such as rope and blindfold. Advanced: Manacles and irons. Expert: Magical confinement.

Still working on: Move Silently, Pick Pockets, Detect Noise, Bribe, Tunneling, Appraise. (I pilfered most of this list from 2E Skills and Powers.) In most cases, the challenge is not to come up with rules to do the thing but to find a way to make the thief's version "special," granting an advantage over a regular schlub relying on ability checks.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Dausuul, some good stuff there. Any thought to pulling some of the more detailed information out of the class listings? In particular, I thought the wizard spell research information was a little detailed for a class listing. I'm not sure the RC method of "embed things in the class listing because no other class will ever get it" was very conducive to hacking.

 

[Dausuul]

Dausuul, some good stuff there. Any thought to pulling some of the more detailed information out of the class listings? In particular, I thought the wizard spell research information was a little detailed for a class listing. I'm not sure the RC method of "embed things in the class listing because no other class will ever get it" was very conducive to hacking.

In the formal writeup, I already took spell research out of the wizard class listing. It was taking up too much room; I'm aiming for two pages per listing, one of which is devoted to a level chart. Spell research will probably end up in the same chapter with the wizard spell list.

This brings up a more general question though: What goes where? What belongs in the class writeup in the "Creating a Character" section? What should go in the intro to the class's "special features chapter" (fighter maneuvers, thief talents, cleric and magic-user spells)? And what should be bundled into other chapters like combat rules? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

This brings up a more general question though: What goes where? What belongs in the class writeup in the "Creating a Character" section? What should go in the intro to the class's "special features chapter" (fighter maneuvers, thief talents, cleric and magic-user spells)? And what should be bundled into other chapters like combat rules? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I'm not sure, and I'm well aware that there are trade-offs merely in teaching the game, versus making it engaging, versus making the book a good reference tool. And that doesn't even touch elegance and customization issues. So that said:

I'd be really interested in how far one could push a project like this into the organization that Mouse Guard used. If you aren't familiar with it, it basically is broken down into:

1. What the game is about
2. Picking a starting character (mostly pre-gen)
3. How to play
4. How to run (though some overlap with previous section)
5. How to make a custom character

A neat thing about this is that it finesses the "teach" versus "reference work" issue. And I don't know which came first, the discipline or the organization, but this tactic would seem to encourage the author to move things where they naturally do the most good. Is spell research something that is expected to happen in play? Well, then it goes in "How to play". Or, if it doesn't come up that often, maybe in "How to run". But it doesn't belong in "How to make a custom character" unless it is primarily color, and it doesn't belong earlier than "How to play" unless it is absolutely crucial to getting a character concept.

Note that this might necessarily mean broaching the subject in one place and going into more detail later. It might make perfect sense to note early that thieves get special talents (and here in your starting character, you get these two). Then in "How to Play" you show the whole list and how they work. Then in customizing characters, you show how the thief gets to pick from the list and when.

Even if the final product isn't organized this way, I think it a useful exercise when answering such questions.

 

[pemerton]

THIEVES

Dausuul, some good stuff there.

Agreed. I have to confess that the fighter and MU writeups didn't especially grab me, but the thief ideas I really liked. (Still can't XP you - sorry.)

 

[Dausuul]

Is spell research something that is expected to happen in play? Well, then it goes in "How to play". Or, if it doesn't come up that often, maybe in "How to run". But it doesn't belong in "How to make a custom character" unless it is primarily color, and it doesn't belong earlier than "How to play" unless it is absolutely crucial to getting a character concept.

This makes sense, and runs along the same lines I was considering. Class writeup is meant to introduce the class and provide the stuff needed for chargen; detailed rules are not required, except the bits that tell you what numbers to write in the boxes. The specifics are handled in a chapter devoted to the mechanics of the class, intended for reference at the table. I also like the idea of a chapter that showcases sample characters and examples of play.

Of course, all this may be getting the cart before the horse. Should probably focus on building the game before fussing too much about presentation.

Dausuul, some good stuff there.

Agreed. I have to confess that the fighter and MU writeups didn't especially grab me, but the thief ideas I really liked.

So what is it about the thief design particularly that you guys like? Maybe I can import it into the fighter and M-U (and cleric, when I get to it).

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Of course, all this may be getting the cart before the horse. Should probably focus on building the game before fussing too much about presentation.

I agree about presentation itself, but to the extent that thinking about presentation informs your ideas about organization, I think it helps. It is analogous to doing an outline for a paper.

So what is it about the thief design particularly that you guys like? Maybe I can import it into the fighter and M-U (and cleric, when I get to it).

For me, it is the work you put in to make the thief things obviously special cases of where the thief's skill supersedes what normal people can all do, thus preserving that normal people can do it. Similar distinctions in the other classes would be fun.

Sure, even in the original, the fighter used weapons better than anyone else, but it was primarily a case of bigger numbers in the end--more to hit, more damage, more protection. Even multiple attacks mostly diminishes to "more damage". Let's say for sake of argument that somewhere in the combat system, if a character attacks with a weapon, this seriously impedes movement options for the target (not unlike 4E fighter marking), and anyone can do this. Well, the fighter still is the best at this due to the higher numbers, but suddenly multiple attacks is a difference in kind, not just degree. The fighter is far more able to hold a gap. Things like that.

For the wizard (and cleric), you'd have to make some basic magic options (if only with equipment) a bit more available to non-casters than traditionally was the case. So everyone can do "magic". Then wizards and clerics get ways of doing it that make it capable of amazing results. Perhaps combat magic is one of those "thiings". I don't know exactly, because it would depend upon how far you wanted to move the baseline for "things everyone can do".

Of course, this probably ties into a long-held bias against niche protection designed around, "I'm decent at this, everyone else can't do it at all," versus, "Anyone can at least try to do the simple stuff in this, but I'm really good at it.". In addition to the usual objections, I dislike the former because it causes all kinds of inelegance in customization. (Exhibit A: 3E prestige classes getting screwed up because there wasn't much to take away from a wizard in return for something else.) I'm biased for setting it up so that, "My guy can't do X worth a darn," being an option, not the default.

 

[pemerton]

For me, it is the work you put in to make the thief things obviously special cases of where the thief's skill supersedes what normal people can all do, thus preserving that normal people can do it.

Same for me. In particular, I like the idea that the thief can suspend die rolls in some cases and just do it. That makes a qualitative difference in play, I think.