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The simplest way to do this would be to let the PC stay conscious when reduced to zero life points: say, instead of dropping as soon as you fall to zero, you don't go down until your first failed Con check, or until you're reduced to the "auto kill" threshold.

(Although it's worth noting that abilities like this crank up PC mortality considerably. Unconsciousness protects wounded PCs by removing them as targets.)

Limit its invocation to times when the character has reason to believe that the fight is already "to the death"--either because of personal grudge or the nature of the opponent (e.g. trolls that eat their downed opponents). That's what prompts the ability to function in the first place. This gets the ability back to making the character somewhat more survivable instead of less.

Those times when the PC really thought it was to the death, but it wasn't? Dramatic Irony! :D
 

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The simplest way to do this would be to let the PC stay conscious when reduced to zero life points: say, instead of dropping as soon as you fall to zero, you don't go down until your first failed Con check, or until you're reduced to the "auto kill" threshold.

(Although it's worth noting that abilities like this crank up PC mortality considerably. Unconsciousness protects wounded PCs by removing them as targets.)
We've been doing just this for ages.

You die at -10*. If you get put to anywhere between 0 and -9 you need to roll your Con. or less modified by your current h.p. total on d20 in order to stay conscious. So if I've got Con. 14 and I've just been knocked down to -6 I need to roll (14 - 6) 8 or less to stay awake. Awake characters trying to do things when below 0 h.p. function at significant minuses and often risk passing out in the attempt. If not cured you'll eventually bleed to death.

* - notwithstanding effects like Death's Door and Neutralize Poison that can sometimes trump this rule.

Lan-"not dead yet, just having a rest"-efan
 

I had that system - well, something very similar; yours is even more generous - for about 25 years. It's exactly what I'm trying to get away from, as at higher levels (about 7th-plus) it breaks the game.


Lan-"if it ain't broke I can't fix it"-efan

Yeah, the spell point totals get too large and the flexibility starts to really make a difference. A 10th level AD&D magic user would have 4x1 + 4x2 + 3x3 + 4x2 + 5x2 = 39 spell points. That allows extreme concentration in one spell (13 fireballs) as well as great flexibility to adapt to circumstances (fly, invisibility, mirror image, teleport can all be lifesavers depending on what you need to do).

Heck, part of what balanced AD&D teleport was the need to waste a slot on a spell with a risk of death (and so one that would be cast only in a dire emergency).

I see more potential in a fixed spell point system. For example, 3 spell points per level would start to slow spell casting after level 9 or so but would boost the first level magic user. I might even take a page from rolemaster and make it 3 spell points/level for levels 1 to 5, 2 spell points/level for levels 6 to 10 and 1 spell point/level thereafter.

That way you'd balance flexible casting with rapidly diminishing resources and reduce very high level casting. I think it would be too severe but it's unclear if a less aggressive system would work.
 

The Arcana Evolved system, a hybrid between Vancian and the 3E sorcerer/bard options, works fairly well to emulate a spell point system, while still preserving the best effects of slots. It's main issue here is that it might be a bit more involved than you'd want for this kind of ruleset.
 

Yeah, the spell point totals get too large and the flexibility starts to really make a difference. A 10th level AD&D magic user would have 4x1 + 4x2 + 3x3 + 4x2 + 5x2 = 39 spell points.
A slightly more balanced version of D&D spell points might be, I think, one in which spells cost Level + 1 points - so a 3rd level spell costs 2 rather than 3 magic missiles, and a 9th level spell cots 5 rather than 9.

I agree with Crazy Jerome that AU/E is too complicated for Dausuul's project. Is spell points are to be used they have to be kept very simple.
 

A slightly more balanced version of D&D spell points might be, I think, one in which spells cost Level + 1 points - so a 3rd level spell costs 2 rather than 3 magic missiles, and a 9th level spell cots 5 rather than 9.

I agree with Crazy Jerome that AU/E is too complicated for Dausuul's project. Is spell points are to be used they have to be kept very simple.

Yes, I was just throwing out ideas, but you are right that it would be hard to do this in a very simple way that is also balanced.

In more general terms, I would like to find ways to make low level magic users (levels 1 to 4) slightly more effective and high level ones (> 12th level) slightly less effective than the AD&D baseline. I think Arcana Evolved was one way to try and thread this needle. The Psion class was another way forward but it turned casters into huge explosions of power for a short time. I think 4E correctly went in the opposite direction.
 

There are some great ideas here and I applaud the effort and have enjoyed reading the discussion. Here are some of my thoughts to contribute:

1. Ability scores. Are you sticking with the D&D six scores? There something to be said for modification and clarification, because Int/Wis tend to get confused, and Cha has always been misunderstood. A relabeling and refocus might help: Strength, Intelligence, Perception, Agility, Health, and Personality (or perhaps Influence). That might make it a little easier to tie skill-type checks to ability scores.

2. Wound / Hit points. Perhaps I missed it, but what about using the CON/Health score as the "life point" value, with each class getting some bonus (e.g. +1 for MU or cleric, +2 for Rogue, +3 for fighter) to Con/Health at first level. That provides a little more variation in "life points" and plus room before death, particularly at first level, assuming hit points are class/level related and ablated first, and you only go into life points once hit points are consumed.

3. Races. Haven't seen a lot of follow-on race discussion but if you're firmly separating race and class, there should probably be at least a small mechanical value to differentiate choice of race. I'd suggest a small ability adjustment (+1 or +2), and oe or two small flavor abilities. If there some ability system -- I hesitate to use the term feat, but something feat-like -- racial choice might open up options for abilities unique to each race that can be selected at levels. Examples:

Human: +1 to any ability at 1st level, Cosmopolitan (+1 of any language), +1 ability/feat (any)
Elf: +1 to Int, Speak Elven, Proficient with Bows (regardless of class), Woodland affinity (able to follow trails and forage in wooded environment)
Dwarf: +1 to Con/Health, Speak Dwarf, Proficient with Hammers/Axes, Underground Affinity (able to track underground and detect sloping passages)
Halfling: +1 to Dex/Agility, Speak Halfling, Proficient with Sling & thrown weapons, Plains affinity (able to track & forage in plains, hills, and grasslands)
... etc

Also, though you have 4 (+) races able to take 4 classes, to capture some of the original BECMI flavor you might consider giving the races some option to take a "Race Paragon" class instead of a standard class that essentially models the Elf, Halfling, etc race-as-class model from BECMI plus simulates the multi-classes from 1E/2E. The "race paragon" class might mix class features from two of the other classes, though each would have to be carefully designed to not overshadow a single class selection. So for example:

Elf Paragon Class: Mix of Fighter and Magic-User features
Halfling Paragon Class: Mix of Fighter and Rogue features
Dwarf Paragon Class: Mix of Fighter and Cleric features
Human Paragon Class: Could be a jack-of-all-trades that mixes features from all four classes, or just allows choice of one of the other race's paragon classes

(to really get a mix of options, add more races. So the Gnome Paragon becomes the Magic-user/Rogue option, the Half-Orc Paragon becomes Cleric/Rogue, and the Half-Elf Paragon becomes Magic-User/Cleric, etc.)

4. Spell casting. With the sorcerer-like casting (spells known and slots per day), how about some added flexibility: you can use up a higher level spell slot to cast an additional spell of a that lower level you know, or you can use up two spell slots of one level to cast an additional spell of the next higher level that you know (some once 3rd level spells are consumed, you can burn 2 2d level spell slots and cast a 3d level instead). That might reduce some of the "Vancian" feel as there is a way to continue casting higher or lower level spells, but at some additional cost. Plus it's simpler than spell points.

5. Out of combat/background abilities. There's been discussion of "Profession" skills, what about adding "Craft"-type skills to that list. I'd generate a list of both, define what they apply to, and let the player choose a Profession and Craft at first level. Each level give them a point to improve a Profession or Craft (and existing one, or choose a new one). Each point gives an additional point toward a skill or ability check, but cap the maximum rank in each profession or craft at some reasonable number (say 5 or 10), so that while the expert can focus, there is a limit to the amount of min-maxing that can be done with professions & crafts. Keep profession/craft points separate from other interactions, and have them only affect background-related skill checks and you have a relatively simple system that can allow for tailored background that still have an affect on the game but doesn't overwhelm it. Nor does it force the player to choose between flavor and adventuring utility like the 3.X skill system does with its profession/craft rules.

6. Combat.

a. Recommend using the 3E/4E cyclic initiative system, d20 based. It's simple and works pretty well.

b. I'd use the 4E action system (Attack action, move action, free action) for combat, as it's also simple. Some redefinition might be needed (Attack = make attack(s) or cast a spell, cane be traded for a move action; Move = move your speed or use a class ability, free action = speak).

c. Spellcasting & missile use. I'd assume dropping the whole opportunity attack idea for simplicity, but you do probably want a spellcasting or missile use interrupt option. Either ban spellcasting and missile use outright if you're adjacent to an enemy (next square if minis are used, DM's call if not), or better, require the PC to make a skill check (Int or Dex/Agility) to cast a spell or use a missile weapon adjacent to a foe: success and the attack/spell goes off, failure and it does not.

d. I'd allow the concept of delayed/readied actions -- so a PC could delay an action in case the enemy spellcaster casts a spell. When the readied action goes off, the PC gets the attack; in the case of interrupting spellcasting if the attack does damage, the spellcaster (or missile firer) must make the above-referenced Int/Dex check to successfully use the spell/missile weapon.

e. I'd expand the weapon list slightly, but tie some rules to categories.

(1) Melee/Thrown. Large Two handed weapons (greatswords, mauls) would be the only 1d10 (or 2d6 or 1d12?) damage weapons. One handed "martial weapons" (longsword, battle axe, warhammer, flail) would do 1d8 but allow the use of a shield. Smaller one-handed "basic weapons" (short sword, mace, club, rapier) do 1d6 damage and allow the use of a shield, or allow the use of a small weapon as an off-hand weapon for dual wielding. Small weapons (dagger, throwing axe, throwing hammer) do 1d4 damage, but can be thrown, or used as off-hand weapons for dual wielding. [Side note on dual-wield: of restricted to 1d6 + 1d4 weapons, max potential damage is the same as the large two-handed weapons (10), though the average damage is slightly different due to two attack rolls and a bell curve damage versus one attack roll and linear damage. Might want to crunch numbers or play with other abilities so these are equally viable fighting styles. Of course neither allows a shield or would be allowed to provide a defense advantage to keep those options balanced with a 1d8 weapon and shield.] A few weapons might need special categories: spear is 1d8 damage and two-handed but can attack an opponent farther away (reach); quarterstaff is a two-handed 1d8 weapon that can also be used to make two attacks at the player's choice, but when used for two attacks does 1d6 on one attack and 1d4 damage on the second (or maybe instead it's the one 1d8 weapon that also provides +1 to AC since it's two-handed).

(2) Missile weapons (not thrown) are all two-handed: Treat heavy crossbow as 1d10, but cannot make more than one attack per round (when fighters gain more attacks) or be used mounted; Longbows are 1d8 and can do multiple attacks, but can't be used mounted. Light crossbow is 1d8, can't make more than one attack per round, but can be used mounted; Short bow and sling do 1d6, can make more than one attack per round and can be used mounted.

f. Multiple attack rolls (whether from dual weapons or the fighter's multiple attacks) all happen during a single attack action to keep things simple.

g. Combat Advantage: For simplicity I'd use a single +2 modifier to cover all "combat advantage" scenarios for simplicity: attacking from higher ground, flanking a target, attacking a prone/stunned opponent, etc. Anything the DM needs to make a snap ruling on falls under the "Combat advantage" category.
 
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Are you sticking with the D&D six scores? There something to be said for modification and clarification, because Int/Wis tend to get confused, and Cha has always been misunderstood. A relabeling and refocus might help: Strength, Intelligence, Perception, Agility, Health, and Personality (or perhaps Influence). That might make it a little easier to tie skill-type checks to ability scores.

If I were going to rename the scores, I would go with Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Knowledge, Awareness, and Charisma. I don't think Charisma is misunderstood particularly, and the physical stats look fine to me. Intelligence and Wisdom are the troublesome ones.

However, the six classic scores are so central to D&D, from the very first days of the game, that I'm reluctant to mess with them. I don't know... anyone else want to weigh in? How important are the "classic names" to you?

2. Wound / Hit points. Perhaps I missed it, but what about using the CON/Health score as the "life point" value, with each class getting some bonus (e.g. +1 for MU or cleric, +2 for Rogue, +3 for fighter) to Con/Health at first level.

As currently written, both life points and hit points are dictated strictly by class and level. I thought about incorporating Con into this formula--very, very briefly. But that puts far too much weight on Con compared to the other scores. One of the things I wanted to do in this game was make core combat stats and class abilities mostly independent of ability scores.

Con is already one of the most important stats for any PC, since you use it for "death saves" and resisting some of the nastier status effects (poison, disease, etc.). It doesn't need more to do.

3. Races. Haven't seen a lot of follow-on race discussion but if you're firmly separating race and class, there should probably be at least a small mechanical value to differentiate choice of race. I'd suggest a small ability adjustment (+1 or +2), and oe or two small flavor abilities.

That's more or less what I have in mind, yes. Still tinkering with the way nonhumans work, but I think it will involve all nonhumans being multi-classed; elves are multi-classed _____/magic-user, dwarves are multi-classed _____/fighter, halflings are multi-classed _____/thief. The idea is that magic-user, fighter, and thief are innate talents for elf, dwarf, and halfling respectively, so they all have some basic ability, but it's instinctive rather than trained. An elven fighter/MU would consider herself a fighter.

(I ran the numbers and found that multi-classing is fairly balanced with a simple rule: A multi-classed PC combines the best stats and the class features of each class, and has a class level of 2/3 her character level. So a 12th-level elven fighter/MU combines the life, hit points, base AC, and attack bonus of an 8th-level fighter with the spell bonus and magic resistance of an 8th-level MU; along with fighter talents, fighter multi-attack, and MU spells, all at 8th level.)

Spell casting. With the sorcerer-like casting (spells known and slots per day), how about some added flexibility: you can use up a higher level spell slot to cast an additional spell of a that lower level you know, or you can use up two spell slots of one level to cast an additional spell of the next higher level that you know.

I sort of took for granted that MUs could burn high-level slots for lower-level spells, but you're right, I should call that out specifically in the rules. I'm reluctant to allow going the other way, even at a 2-for-1 (or more) ratio. There's always been an issue in D&D with casters "going nova," and allowing MUs to burn up their low-level slots for high-level spells would exacerbate it.

There's been discussion of "Profession" skills, what about adding "Craft"-type skills to that list. I'd generate a list of both, define what they apply to, and let the player choose a Profession and Craft at first level. Each level give them a point to improve a Profession or Craft (and existing one, or choose a new one).

I'd include crafts in professions. I'd rather not have a skill-point-type system, though. That's way too complicated for a mechanic whose main purpose is adding a bit of flavor. PCs are adventurers first and foremost; they aren't going to be spending a lot of time sweating over a forge or sitting at a loom. Professions, if I end up including them, are just to encourage players to think of their characters as more than Fighty McFighterson and Master-Caster.

Recommend using the 3E/4E cyclic initiative system, d20 based. It's simple and works pretty well.

Yeah, I lean toward some form cyclic initiative... although... hmm. Declare-roll-resolve is clunky, but it does have its virtues. Aside from putting that edge of danger into spellcasting, it creates the feeling that everything is happening simultaneously. Cyclic initiative often feels like "everybody freezes into statues, I do my thing, then I freeze into a statue and someone else comes to life."

I may have to test them both at the table and see how they play out. If the game were as complicated as 4E, it wouldn't even be a question, but this system looks like being simple enough for declare-roll-resolve to be feasible.

I'd use the 4E action system (Attack action, move action, free action) for combat, as it's also simple.

Yup, that's what I'm doing--although the 4E terms are "standard, move, minor." Trying to avoid the need for minor actions, but the cleric may force me to incorporate them.

Either ban spellcasting and missile use outright if you're adjacent to an enemy (next square if minis are used, DM's call if not), or better, require the PC to make a skill check (Int or Dex/Agility) to cast a spell or use a missile weapon adjacent to a foe: success and the attack/spell goes off, failure and it does not.

This was the direction I was going, but the constraint would have to apply any time you start your turn next to an enemy. Otherwise you can just move away and do your thing. (You see this a lot in 3E/4E, where a caster menaced by a melee foe can shift or 5-foot step away, then cast in perfect safety. Kinda defeats the point.)

This is one argument for declare-roll-resolve; interruption mechanics arise naturally from the system instead of having to be kludged in.

I'd allow the concept of delayed/readied actions -- so a PC could delay an action in case the enemy spellcaster casts a spell.

There's a guy named KarinsDad on these forums whose sig says, "The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action." I avoid basing anything on the assumption that people are going to be using readied actions. I may have to include readying rules if I go with cyclic initiative, but readying should be something that happens in exceptional cases.

I'd expand the weapon list slightly, but tie some rules to categories.

Mm... I want to keep weapons pretty simple. Each weapon gets a damage die, an indication of whether it's one- or two-handed, and a range in feet, if it can be used ranged. The standard for melee weapons is 1d10 for two hands, 1d8 for one hand. The standard for ranged weapons is 1d8 for two hands, 1d6 for one hand. Weapons with smaller damage dice than the standard are generally used only by certain classes or in special situations.

There may be a couple of special cases, of course. Crossbows will probably do 1d10 or even 1d12, but take a standard action to reload.

For simplicity I'd use a single +2 modifier to cover all "combat advantage" scenarios for simplicity: attacking from higher ground, flanking a target, attacking a prone/stunned opponent, etc. Anything the DM needs to make a snap ruling on falls under the "Combat advantage" category.

The idea of a single, blanket "combat advantage" bonus was one of 4E's best changes. I'm definitely keeping it.
 

Yeah, I lean toward some form cyclic initiative... although... hmm. Declare-roll-resolve is clunky, but it does have its virtues. Aside from putting that edge of danger into spellcasting, it creates the feeling that everything is happening simultaneously. Cyclic initiative often feels like "everybody freezes into statues, I do my thing, then I freeze into a statue and someone else comes to life."

I may have to test them both at the table and see how they play out. If the game were as complicated as 4E, it wouldn't even be a question, but this system looks like being simple enough for declare-roll-resolve to be feasible.

I think we are all kind of picking around at the edges on this one, with our own assumptions based on how we would lean, and guessing from what has been said thus far what your leanings mean.

So I think it might be helpful if we talked more about goals rather than means for just a bit. It is clear that the system should be fairly simple--roughly about as simple overall as the original BD&D versions--even if not simple the same way. And then with the above and before, it appears to be a goal that casting in combat is a bit of a gamble? But what other goals are there?

If we have a good handle on goals, then a more holistic answer may emerge. With a simple system, it isn't so much whether a given complexity is useful enough or not, but rather whether a given complexity is more important than the other things that could be in its place.

Any choice of an initiative system drags in a whole host of other concerns, for example. Those other concerns produce game elements that dwarf the impact of the initiative system itself. Ideally, you want those other game elements to be ones that bring something more to the ruleset than simply addressing the initiative concern. (That is, "readied" and "delayed" actions might be just great if you want that kind of thing. If you are only bringing them in to deal with some of the side effects of cyclic initiative, then that is too great a cost for a simple system.)
 
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If I were going to rename the scores, I would go with Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Knowledge, Awareness, and Charisma. I don't think Charisma is misunderstood particularly, and the physical stats look fine to me. Intelligence and Wisdom are the troublesome ones.

However, the six classic scores are so central to D&D, from the very first days of the game, that I'm reluctant to mess with them. I don't know... anyone else want to weigh in? How important are the "classic names" to you?
The current names are fine. I've never had a problem explaining the difference between Int. and Wis. to anyone. The only issue I've ever had is trying to convince people to divorce Charisma from physical attractiveness; and simply renaming it won't solve that one.
As currently written, both life points and hit points are dictated strictly by class and level. I thought about incorporating Con into this formula--very, very briefly. But that puts far too much weight on Con compared to the other scores. One of the things I wanted to do in this game was make core combat stats and class abilities mostly independent of ability scores.
Be careful not to give too many extra h.p. at 1st level. Soneone suggested giving body points equal to your Con. score, this is too many. A range of 2-7 is fine, it makes 1st-level characters just that little bit more resilient while also becoming mostly irrelevant at higher levels as it should.
I sort of took for granted that MUs could burn high-level slots for lower-level spells, but you're right, I should call that out specifically in the rules. I'm reluctant to allow going the other way, even at a 2-for-1 (or more) ratio. There's always been an issue in D&D with casters "going nova," and allowing MUs to burn up their low-level slots for high-level spells would exacerbate it.
Allowing them to swap slots for other slots in any way at all is a bad idea, even to use higher slots for lower spells. At very low level it's irrelevant, but at higher levels it gives casters way too much ability to spam low-level spells. I'd rather they be slightly forced into coming up with creative uses for other spells.

Yeah, I lean toward some form cyclic initiative... although... hmm. Declare-roll-resolve is clunky, but it does have its virtues. Aside from putting that edge of danger into spellcasting, it creates the feeling that everything is happening simultaneously. Cyclic initiative often feels like "everybody freezes into statues, I do my thing, then I freeze into a statue and someone else comes to life."
Ghastly system, for exactly that reason. Also, it disallows simultaneous actions, which can provide high drama at times.
I may have to test them both at the table and see how they play out. If the game were as complicated as 4E, it wouldn't even be a question, but this system looks like being simple enough for declare-roll-resolve to be feasible.
It can also be roll-declare-resolve, where you can base your action on what has already happened within that round if needed.
This was the direction I was going, but the constraint would have to apply any time you start your turn next to an enemy. Otherwise you can just move away and do your thing. (You see this a lot in 3E/4E, where a caster menaced by a melee foe can shift or 5-foot step away, then cast in perfect safety. Kinda defeats the point.)

This is one argument for declare-roll-resolve; interruption mechanics arise naturally from the system instead of having to be kludged in.
In regards to what I bolded here, it's not just when you start next to an enemy but if an enemy gets next to you earlier in the round before you start casting.




There's a guy named KarinsDad on these forums whose sig says, "The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action." I avoid basing anything on the assumption that people are going to be using readied actions. I may have to include readying rules if I go with cyclic initiative, but readying should be something that happens in exceptional cases.
The idea of readying or holding an action isn't that bad even in a roll-declare-resolve situation. If you roll a 6 initiative and state you're drawing your bow and holding until that caster over there starts handwaving, that's pretty easy to handle.

Mm... I want to keep weapons pretty simple. Each weapon gets a damage die, an indication of whether it's one- or two-handed, and a range in feet, if it can be used ranged. The standard for melee weapons is 1d10 for two hands, 1d8 for one hand. The standard for ranged weapons is 1d8 for two hands, 1d6 for one hand. Weapons with smaller damage dice than the standard are generally used only by certain classes or in special situations.

There may be a couple of special cases, of course. Crossbows will probably do 1d10 or even 1d12, but take a standard action to reload.
I don't mind different weapons doing different damage. This is an area where it might be a concern if you simplify it too much...or not.

But it makes no sense for a dagger and a longsword to both do d8 in melee.

Another thing to consider: the damage output from ranged weapons was kept down in 0e-1e, I think, to encourage characters to stand in and fight rather than just shoot at range all the time.

Lan-"a hockey stick does d6 in melee"-efan
 

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