D&D 4E 4e, Non-Martial Characters, and Limited Feat Choices

I noticed the same thing with a human warlock I levelled up to 4th. Improved initiative, toughness and two human racials. Non-casters definitely get a lot more feat love.

Need splats now!
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Doug McCrae said:
I noticed the same thing with a human warlock I levelled up to 4th. Improved Initiative, Toughness and two human racials. Non-casters definitely get a lot more feat love.

Need splats now!
Yeah, the human feats are very nice. I would have taken those too, and maybe the appropriate Warlock feat if I was a Warlock. It's the other interesting thing: Even when there are more choices, you are often a cookie-cutter character because there are a few that are just clearly immediately useful and then most you can never take. Like I know three people who made Rangers. I think all of them took Weapon Focus and the Improved Quarry feat as their first two feats (two were elves, and the elven racial feats are disappointing, which is quite okay because Elven Accuracy is so awesome).
 
Last edited:

Saeviomagy said:

It seems like you don't have access to the books (many of the times, what you think the feat does is actually something I would take, but it doesn't do that). My GM has them so I've seen all the feats.

Wait - are you discounting this because you've read the adventure or something? Is the feat a minor bonus vs giants and giants alone?

Minor bonus versus large things. [SBLOCK=Spoiler for KotS]We've already done intel on the enemies, and we know that there are kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, and undead in this adventure. It's possible that the cult leader will like have an ogre bodyguard or something, but it seems unlikely.[/SBLOCK]

This seems like a consequence of the adventure and possibly your DMs tactics rather than anything else.

It is a consequence of the adventure, but remember, this is the 4e preview adventure. It may be typical, and if not, I expect it to hold constant for a while. Maybe if we go to a new adventure where it isn't true, I'll retrain. For now, Skill Training would be much more useful.

Also - how do you have such high perception if you've not got skill training in it?

High Wis and the Elf's aura. The Elf has better though.

So take it and then DO provoke attacks. Soaking up those attacks can be beneficial, especially if you've got a very high AC against them.

That's not profitable. This from a player who has once had his high-AC character specifically spend a full round running through the enemies and provoking AoOs in 3.5. Thanks to the streamlining of to-hit and AC in 4e, even with the +2 bonus, you'll get hit a lot, and there have never been any times so far where an ally needed me to waste an enemy's AoO for them.

? Why have you had to stop for the day if you're not out of surges?

Because someone else runs out or we beat all the enemies in the area and reach town (or in one case, we had to flee because the Irontooth encounter is crazy stacked).

I assume this improves your movement rate somehow. To quote any number of roleplaying and other references "I don't have to run faster than you, I just have to run faster than our dwarf cleric". If you're the slowest party member, improving your movement rate improves the movement rate of the party as a whole.

You're getting it confused with a Paragon-tier feat that gives +1 movement. I would take that in a heartbeat. It only gives a movement increase when charging or running. My character will likely never charge (no powers that she would use at the end of a charge) and has never run yet.

From the sounds of things, it's a "channel divinity to roll a save", right? Frankly that sounds great.

That would be quite useful--in fact, I think it's another god's channel divinity. But no. On a Nat 20, and only a Nat 20, you give the enemy your condition.

This works a lot better if you see it as foresight instead of quick reflexes. Your cleric is wise enough that she's already thought a situation through before it occurs, and when a combat starts, she acts instead of reacting.

Oh, that's what I'll call it if I eventually take Improved Init, which I'm sure I will. But it's upsetting to have my hand forced into Improved Init, Toughness, and the two skill feats.

It sounds like you're more dissatisfied with the power of feats in general. I mean most of the other feats aren't all that much better than what you've listed - the various +1 to damage feats take 5 rounds to do enough damage to overcome toughness for instance.

Nope, not at all. Plenty of feats have a good power level. The variety is just terrible for some characters. You don't seem to have the books. I can understand why you wouldn't agree yet--I didn't see it until I started playing and making my own character. Even after looking at it I couldn't see it until I played.
 

Rystil Arden said:
Yeah, I totally didn't see it either until actually making a character.

I will agree that you really don't notice how few feats you can actually take until you actually make a character.

I'm hoping splats will help fix this but until then I agree your choices are limited.

Still...don't underestimate toughness. Its +5 hitpoints, +1-2 more healing from healing surges, and +2 to your bloodied status. Its important and useful.

Also skills are a bigger part of 4e than in 3e, as magic never really replaces them. Don't get in the 3e mindset when looking at skill focus, that bonus is a huge benefit, and if at high levels your skills get so high you no longer feel like you need the bonus then just retrain it out.
 

While it seemed you had a decent number of possible feats some of which you maybe justifiably discounted, my complaint would be I did not see much in the way of feats that make you a better cleric. Where are the feats that improve your spell casting a feat appropriate amount. Better armor is cool, hitting more often with a mace is awesome but there should be feats that enhance magic as well.
 

Rystil Arden said:
@Defensive Mobility, perhaps you might think so, but I've only had one opportunity attack against me so far in six battles.

When playing with the pregens, our cleric didn't provoke too many OA either. But she was using basic attacks several times to avoid OA.

Spoilers for KotS (level 1 and outside areas):

The shifty kobolds generally did a good job avoiding our fighter via diagonal movement, or having non marked guys double shift to get around our line, so they were in our caster's face quite a bit. And those dragonshields will follow you if you shift away to use ranged powers.

The kruthik fight also had our cleric on the frontline, since tunnels set up a pincer attack for them.
 

Stalker0 said:
I will agree that you really don't notice how few feats you can actually take until you actually make a character.

I'm hoping splats will help fix this but until then I agree your choices are limited.

Still...don't underestimate toughness. Its +5 hitpoints, +1-2 more healing from healing surges, and +2 to your bloodied status. Its important and useful.

Also skills are a bigger part of 4e than in 3e, as magic never really replaces them. Don't get in the 3e mindset when looking at skill focus, that bonus is a huge benefit, and if at high levels your skills get so high you no longer feel like you need the bonus then just retrain it out.
Oh, I know that getting skill bonuses is good now--after all, I did settle on Skill Training as my first feat (though I multiclassed since it got me extra stuff on top of Training for free, I would have taken Skill Training anyway even if multiclassing hadn't been an option). My complaint is not that the one I eventually picked was a skill-based feat. It's that I only basically had 4 feat choices. And all four of them are very very generic and bland (two skill boosts, Improved Init, and Toughness).

As for the increased amount of healing from healing surges given by Toughness, I did think of that, but it honestly isn't as big a deal as it could be. I focused on healing, and I'm very good at it--especially after finding +1 Dwarven Chainmail in a treasure chest, I have incredible amounts of cheap self-healing. I calculated that I can heal myself for over twice my maximum HP in one round and still have time to use a standard action to attack (as long as I don't move). I still may take Toughness simply for lack of options, of course.
 

Rystil Arden said:
Improved Init--Remains an option, but it doesn't fit my character concept and high Init is less important in 4e when you expect to exhaust your main abilities each encounter anyway and capacity is more linear and less nova.

Actually, since it takes a short rest to restore your Encounter powers it can be important to strike first in an attempt to conserve valuable healing powers.
 

Stalker0 said:
Also skills are a bigger part of 4e than in 3e, as magic never really replaces them. Don't get in the 3e mindset when looking at skill focus, that bonus is a huge benefit, and if at high levels your skills get so high you no longer feel like you need the bonus then just retrain it out.

Also, as I understand it a whole lot of the 4e skills are based on Wis and Cha, so a laser cleric will be very good at those he trains.
 

Ahglock said:
While it seemed you had a decent number of possible feats some of which you maybe justifiably discounted, my complaint would be I did not see much in the way of feats that make you a better cleric. Where are the feats that improve your spell casting a feat appropriate amount. Better armor is cool, hitting more often with a mace is awesome but there should be feats that enhance magic as well.
There actually isn't anything in there that increases hit chance with the mace--Weapon Focus increases damage. But I'm totally with you on this. It's what I said before--the few feats left to me aren't any that help me define my character. They're just...bland.

That said, there is exactly one feat that buffs spells--it gives +1 radiant damage, it just requires too much Dex for most Clerics to take it.
 

Remove ads

Top