D&D 4E 4e, Non-Martial Characters, and Limited Feat Choices

[Rystil Arden]

I did wind up having to tank for a bit in a few fights, but I rarely took opportunity attacks.

[SBLOCK=Irontooth fight Spoiler]Interesting.

We had this bizarre surreal time fighting Irontooth when the Fighter was at full HP near the end of the fight when we ran and I had absorbed over 80 Damage (at level 1). I happened not to get Dragonshields stuck on me, so I could always shift. I took my only 2 opportunity attacks of the adventure so far when I was flanked by Skirmishers and had to shift and get hit by one of them, but they do puny damage so it didn't matter.

Also, I do have a Close power to use if I get surrounded.[/SBLOCK]

 

[Ahglock]

There actually isn't anything in there that increases hit chance with the mace--Weapon Focus increases damage. But I'm totally with you on this. It's what I said before--the few feats left to me aren't any that help me define my character. They're just...bland.

That said, there is exactly one feat that buffs spells--it gives +1 radiant damage, it just requires too much Dex for most Clerics to take it.

Well that kind of sucks. I expect about 1/2 of my players to be magic types, I'd like the core books to cover there needs as well.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Also, as I understand it a whole lot of the 4e skills are based on Wis and Cha, so a laser cleric will be very good at those he trains.

Yeah, Str has 1, Con 1, Dex 3, Int 3, Wis 5, Cha 4. That's why I went for Skill Training. Well, that and the extremely limited feat choices.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well that kind of sucks. I expect about 1/2 of my players to be magic types, I'd like the core books to cover there needs as well.

There are others for different energy types. And then there's some for higher levels. And the magic classes do get class-specific feats (but in each case, they only have 1 available feat--I said there are 3 Warlock feats in my original post, but it's just one per pact type). I actually briefly mentioned every feat in the Heroic Tier in my OP, so what you see there is the full set of choices.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't have the books yet, but this seems like a reasonable complaint. I am getting the sense they tried to stuff too much stuff into the PHB, and had to make too many cuts that will end up in splat books. I wish they had just made the PHB longer. I'd have paid $5-$10 more for those extra pages.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I don't have the books yet, but this seems like a reasonable complaint. I am getting the sense they tried to stuff too much stuff into the PHB, and had to make too many cuts that will end up in splat books. I wish they had just made the PHB longer. I'd have paid $5-$10 more for those extra pages.

Yep, I would have definitely paid $10 more for a substantially greater variety of feats, epic destinies, etc. Also, the DMG didn't seem too large--honestly, the many complaints about where the magic items were located aside, if the magic items had been pushed to the DMG, that would have left plenty of space for more feats and the like. I suppose I'll get my wish in a different $ to feat ratio if I keep going with the splat books.

 

[AkaKageWarrior]

hmmm, the removal of all the metamagic stuff is definitely bad for the casters.

but concerning your cleric:
maybe you should give him some more melee power?

and for other feats:
at least intelligence is good for being a restrictive prereq for some feats...


AKW

 

[Zurai]

Actually, bow Rangers have few decent feat choices either. There's Far Shot, maybe Weapon Focus, maybe Improved Initiative, maybe Precise Hunting (but that seems like a REALLY weak feat to me - 5% chance for a +1 attack bonus that doesn't even affect yourself?), maybe Lethal Hunter (another weak feat; even at epic tier it's only +3 average damage once per round). I ended up taking Alertness at 1st level, of all things, for the "I'm really not surprised" angle.

There are some decent racial feats that could fill the gaps, but only a couple, and only for Elves or Humans. Eladrins, who also make half-decent Rangers, only get one racial feat, and it's pretty well worthless for everyone except melee Rangers, Fighters, Paladins, and Warlords - and for Paladins and Warlords it's really not all that hot either.

 

[Surgoshan]

Zurai, weapon focus gives you, at the epic tier, only +3 damage. Damage doesn't go to ridiculous levels any more. So Lethal Hunter is good there. As for Precise Hunter, you're forgetting that the game isn't about maximizing just yourself, but about interacting as a party. You're talking about granting everyone else a +1 to hit before your next turn comes around, which means they'll be hitting, on average, not 5% more often but something like 10-15% more often, which means that the party will be doing 5 or 6 more damage before your turn comes around... at the heroic tier. At the epic tier, with those huge powers, the party will be getting some 10-20 more damage because of that feat.

As for the eladrin feat, it's a +2 to defenses! It means getting hit roughly 20% less often until your next turn! Say you're a fully equipped paladin at level 30, you'll have 47 AC. The tarrasque needs a 13 or better to hit that. You fey step back and it advances and attacks. Only now it needs a 15 or better to hit, a 40% improvement.

Those heroic feats still matter at the paragon and epic tiers because those ones and twos make a pretty damn big difference. Even those small differences in damage add up. Particularly for the ranger, who's either attacking twice or who's trading damage for accuracy.

 

[Zurai]

Zurai, weapon focus gives you, at the epic tier, only +3 damage. Damage doesn't go to ridiculous levels any more. So Lethal Hunter is good there.

Actually, it gives you a lot more than that. It gives you +3 on every attack. Lethal Hunter gives you +3 on one attack per turn (just like Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry damage can only be applied once per turn). Even at 1st level, you have powers that let you attack multiple times a turn. Multi-attacking is very, very common in both the melee and archery Ranger powers. Lethal Hunter is a far, far less powerful feat than Weapon Focus.

As for Precise Hunter, you're forgetting that the game isn't about maximizing just yourself, but about interacting as a party. You're talking about granting everyone else a +1 to hit before your next turn comes around, which means they'll be hitting, on average, not 5% more often but something like 10-15% more often, which means that the party will be doing 5 or 6 more damage before your turn comes around... at the heroic tier. At the epic tier, with those huge powers, the party will be getting some 10-20 more damage because of that feat.

No, I didn't forget it. +1 to hit is, at maximum, +5% to hit. It's not +15%. There is no possible math that can make a +1 on a d20 roll into a 15% increased chance to hit. Also note that it really is only useful on Elite or Solo-type creatures or if you score a critical very early in the fight, because damage from a critical with a level-appropriate power from a Striker does a lot of damage to a normal-HP monster. Considering that there's no way to extend the critical range on bows, I consider it a very weak feat.

As for the eladrin feat, it's a +2 to defenses! It means getting hit roughly 20% less often until your next turn! Say you're a fully equipped paladin at level 30, you'll have 47 AC. The tarrasque needs a 13 or better to hit that. You fey step back and it advances and attacks. Only now it needs a 15 or better to hit, a 40% improvement.

Completely incorrect. It's +2 to damage with longswords and all spears. Only characters that do most of their fighting with melee weapons get any use out of the feat, and only characters that get multiple attacks per action get great use out of the feat (melee rangers and fighters, basically; rogue powers require light blades, which neither longswords or spears are). EDIT: I see the confusion here. You're talking about the Paragon tier feat, which is still weak compared to the paragon tier feats of other races. I was talking about the Heroic tier feat, Eladrin Soldier.