D&D 4E 4e, Non-Martial Characters, and Limited Feat Choices
- Thread starter Rystil Arden
- Start date
DeusExMachina
First Post
N0Man said:
Multiple Ability Dependency
Basically a class that needs high scores in several different abilities to be effective. Classic example is the 3e Monk...
The stat prereqs on most of the feats are just silly. 15 str & 15 con for plate ? Why? My 8 str halfling paladin is proficient and can wear it with no penalties, so why can't any other class ?
It also irks me that while I can be a full time infernal warlock with 8 charisma, if I just want to dabble (ie. multiclass) I can't do it at all without 13 charisma ! Same story for all the other classes, except the paladin multiclass feat for some reason needs 13 str AND 13 cha while the other classes only need 1 stat at 13.
On another note... weapon focus vs the spell feats are blatant martial favouritism.
Weapon focus:
* No prereqs
* 1-3 damage extra for single group of weapons.
* However will use the same weapon 95%+ of the time
* Complete lack of resistances to melee damage types prevents ever really needing (or wanting) to swap weapons.
Spell feats:
* Requires 13 in 2 stats; usually at least 1 of those being a "dump" stat
* 1-3 damage extra for 2 (seemingly random) energy types
* Depends a bit on powers, but warlocks taking this feat will see it used on about 50% of powers at best. If they want to take additional feats to cover their other damage types, they need to invest 13 in some OTHER dump stats.
It also irks me that while I can be a full time infernal warlock with 8 charisma, if I just want to dabble (ie. multiclass) I can't do it at all without 13 charisma ! Same story for all the other classes, except the paladin multiclass feat for some reason needs 13 str AND 13 cha while the other classes only need 1 stat at 13.
On another note... weapon focus vs the spell feats are blatant martial favouritism.
Weapon focus:
* No prereqs
* 1-3 damage extra for single group of weapons.
* However will use the same weapon 95%+ of the time
* Complete lack of resistances to melee damage types prevents ever really needing (or wanting) to swap weapons.
Spell feats:
* Requires 13 in 2 stats; usually at least 1 of those being a "dump" stat
* 1-3 damage extra for 2 (seemingly random) energy types
* Depends a bit on powers, but warlocks taking this feat will see it used on about 50% of powers at best. If they want to take additional feats to cover their other damage types, they need to invest 13 in some OTHER dump stats.
Torchlyte said:
MAD is not nearly as serious a condition in 4E as it was in 3.x. You raise stats a bit more often than you did in the old rules, and every time you do it, you either raise 2 or all 6 of them. An example:
A hypothetical character has four important stats. A is most important, B and C are about equal as second in importance and D is good to keep as high as possible. Of the last two F has next to no importance at all, and E is only relevant for a couple of skills or so. (Having made a 16th level build for each class as a way to get to know the system, I feel that this is a quite common description.)
Depending on how much you depend on the A stat you would choose different stats from the beginning, but lets say that you go with a 16, 14, 14, 13, 10, 8 array - which really looks MAD, doesn't it? After adding racial bonuses you instead have 18, 14, 14, 15, 10, 8 - not going for the perfect race/class fit with stats, you went for something close enough. After level 4 you have: 19, 15, 14, 15, 10, 8 and level 8 might give 20, 15, 15, 15, 10, 8. (Yes, all those odd numbers are ugly right now, but the payoff will come.) And with level 11: 20, 16, 16, 16, 11, 9. Very nice numbers if I say so myself, and could be 20, 18, 16, 14, 11, 9 with another race.
If you had instead chosen 18, 13, 13, 10, 10, 8 you would go from 20, 13, 13, 12, 10, 8 to 21, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 to 22, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 and 23, 15, 15, 13, 11, 9. Not as generally strong, but still has both a top stat and some decent ones beside it.
Yes, this is all 10 levels later. But isn't it later in the career that the MAD problems are supposed to really kick in?
As for a lack of feats, I agree to an extent. If you make a very focused build you will probably end up having only a few relevant feats. Still, building the level 16 characters I found 15-20 feats that I wanted in every case before I cut it down to only 10. The exercise did teach me to keep track of where I wanted my character to go from the beginning - otherwise cool paragon feats would be missed out on.
For that reason, when it becomes time for me to make a real 4th edition character for playing in a campaign I think I will actually make preliminary builds for it at a few high levels. I have played a character in 3.x from levels 1 to 21 where I placed the stats wrong from the beginning, and it made it weaker than it should be all through its career. (All the rest of the party have also done similar weird builds, which makes the group effectively a couple of levels weaker than it should be. That is a fun challenge for us, and a matter for another thread.)
Picking the wrong stats is even more of a risk in the new game, where retraining can fix almost every other early mistake you make. (And now I have really reambled away from the topic too many times. Better stop.)
Hmm. I agree that its a bit tough to fill your character's heroic tier feat slots with awesome choices. Eventually you run out of combat relevant feats, and start looking at Skill Focus and Improved Initiative.
That being said, I think you are overly dismissive of a few different feats. Plus, you seem to have created your character without keeping an eye on feat prerequisites. Feats are a part of your character, and if you want your character to accomplish something with feats, you need to make sure that you meet the prereqs.
So... if what you want your character to do is to go into melee reach of enemies, you could have a 13 strength. Then you can pick up light shields and scale armor. This gives you a net of +2 ac, +1 reflex, and improves your physical skills across the board by removing your skill penalty. Remember that your ranged at will powers have a range of 5. Chances are that you'll end up in melee whether you like it or not.
If you instead want your character to stand back and use ranged spells, you basically want a dex of at least 13, so that you can pick up Astral Fire. This also lets you go another route for when you can't stay out of melee- you can pick up two weapon fighting and two weapon defense. For another two feats, you can get +1 damage, +1 ac, and +1 reflex. This might be a better choice for your character.
Whether you take either of the above options, there are other feats you should consider, or reconsider.
Improved Initiative can be useful if you intend to spend your powers on buffs with a duration of "one encounter." Consider the level 2 utility that gives your allies +2 ac for the rest of the encounter. Its best to pop that right away. That's just one example, there are plenty more.
Toughness has a "hidden" benefit- increasing your hit points increases the hp you get back per surge. This makes your surges more efficient, allowing you to use fewer healing spells on yourself, and more on your allies. Its not a huge bonus at heroic tier, but its there and it grows.
Defensive Mobility helps if you get stuck in melee reach, and need to flee. It also helps if you're stuck casting spells in melee reach. Considering the short range of many of your at wills, this is not a poor choice.
Skill Training is surprisingly good now. I wouldn't discount Perception, since you can't always control when you're going to be ambushed. Likewise, if you're using Diplomacy, skills like Insight and Bluff make nice companion skills. On top of that, if you're intending to be a highly cerebral cleric, you'll probably be wanting to use rituals. Make sure you've got training in Arcana or Nature to widen your options. Some of these you can choose as class skill choices, but odds are you can't choose them all. Skill Training fills out the rest.
Skill Focus isn't bad, particularly for skills like Arcana that are relevant in a lot of rituals, but in which you haven't got a big bonus due to your Int score not being a priority.
There are a few other decent options. But it seems like you've kind of created the perfect storm for yourself. You don't want weapon relevant feats, even though you're a character class that traditionally fights in melee at least a little bit. You don't like your chosen deity's Channel Divinity feat. You are confident that team tactics will stop you from being ambushed. You are confident that team tactics and your healing powers mean that you don't need to boost your defenses or durability. You've defined your character as one that is primarily cerebral, but you find skills boring. And the only feat in the game that increases your damage output is one that has a prereq you've chosen not to meet.
I think it would be hard for me to come up with a character that gets less mileage out of feats than this one. I myself would like to play a cleric that focuses on ranged spells, but I haven't had this problem, because I've got a 13 dex and a willingness to pick whatever Channel Divinity feat I like the most.
That being said, I think you are overly dismissive of a few different feats. Plus, you seem to have created your character without keeping an eye on feat prerequisites. Feats are a part of your character, and if you want your character to accomplish something with feats, you need to make sure that you meet the prereqs.
So... if what you want your character to do is to go into melee reach of enemies, you could have a 13 strength. Then you can pick up light shields and scale armor. This gives you a net of +2 ac, +1 reflex, and improves your physical skills across the board by removing your skill penalty. Remember that your ranged at will powers have a range of 5. Chances are that you'll end up in melee whether you like it or not.
If you instead want your character to stand back and use ranged spells, you basically want a dex of at least 13, so that you can pick up Astral Fire. This also lets you go another route for when you can't stay out of melee- you can pick up two weapon fighting and two weapon defense. For another two feats, you can get +1 damage, +1 ac, and +1 reflex. This might be a better choice for your character.
Whether you take either of the above options, there are other feats you should consider, or reconsider.
Improved Initiative can be useful if you intend to spend your powers on buffs with a duration of "one encounter." Consider the level 2 utility that gives your allies +2 ac for the rest of the encounter. Its best to pop that right away. That's just one example, there are plenty more.
Toughness has a "hidden" benefit- increasing your hit points increases the hp you get back per surge. This makes your surges more efficient, allowing you to use fewer healing spells on yourself, and more on your allies. Its not a huge bonus at heroic tier, but its there and it grows.
Defensive Mobility helps if you get stuck in melee reach, and need to flee. It also helps if you're stuck casting spells in melee reach. Considering the short range of many of your at wills, this is not a poor choice.
Skill Training is surprisingly good now. I wouldn't discount Perception, since you can't always control when you're going to be ambushed. Likewise, if you're using Diplomacy, skills like Insight and Bluff make nice companion skills. On top of that, if you're intending to be a highly cerebral cleric, you'll probably be wanting to use rituals. Make sure you've got training in Arcana or Nature to widen your options. Some of these you can choose as class skill choices, but odds are you can't choose them all. Skill Training fills out the rest.
Skill Focus isn't bad, particularly for skills like Arcana that are relevant in a lot of rituals, but in which you haven't got a big bonus due to your Int score not being a priority.
There are a few other decent options. But it seems like you've kind of created the perfect storm for yourself. You don't want weapon relevant feats, even though you're a character class that traditionally fights in melee at least a little bit. You don't like your chosen deity's Channel Divinity feat. You are confident that team tactics will stop you from being ambushed. You are confident that team tactics and your healing powers mean that you don't need to boost your defenses or durability. You've defined your character as one that is primarily cerebral, but you find skills boring. And the only feat in the game that increases your damage output is one that has a prereq you've chosen not to meet.
I think it would be hard for me to come up with a character that gets less mileage out of feats than this one. I myself would like to play a cleric that focuses on ranged spells, but I haven't had this problem, because I've got a 13 dex and a willingness to pick whatever Channel Divinity feat I like the most.
Needing to have a certain ability score to meet a feat prereq isn't the same as having to plan a build. Plus, the feat prereqs are logical. Do you want to wear heavy armor? Then you must be strong. If you are not strong, and you later decide you wish to wear heavy armor, you may find that you are not strong enough. This isn't a straightjacket.Starfox said:This is a HUGE problem. Wasn't 4E supposed to alleviate the need to plan ahead and make a build at 1st level which you then stick to? Seems that got lost along the way.
I might well rule-zero attribute prerequisites on feats. But each rule you feel you have to zero makes the overall game structure that much weaker.
In this character's case, he has three options that might require some degree of foresight.
Does he want to wear heavier armor and carry a shield? Then he must be at least a little bit strong. (Scale Armor Proficiency, Light Shield Proficiency, Str 13)
Does he want to wield two weapons, and/or accurately shoot people in the face with magical lasers? Then he must be at least a little bit dexterous. (Astral Fire, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Dex 13)
Does he want to be skillful at many things? If so, then he must be at least a little bit smart. (Jack of All Trades, Int 13)
Rystil Arden
First Post
I'm not sure you understand. I'm in the middle of a game here. These are not options.
All the feats you list except Defensive Mobility are indeed the ones I'm considering. And I'm telling you, I've seen in play that Defensive Mobility would not be helpful. But yes, I agree with you other reasoning on why those other four feats are viable choices. It's why I left them at the bottom as the four choices I have.
Not really. The prereqs for the +Energy feats are extremely haphazarad. Note that Dark Fury requires Wisdom and Con, so the whole "Dex to accurately shoot people" isn't where it's at. Also, I feel like a Light Shield shouldn't require such high strength. What the heck is the point of a "Light" Shield if someone with average (no bonus or penalty) strength can't even use it? The Int prereqs are quite logical, though there's really only one Int feat that's useful (and then, it's just another flavour of Skill feat, though I like the flavour of Jack of All Trades and may come back for it via retraining when I reach a higher tier and get some Int boostage).
See, that's exactly what I did. I have all of the skills you named here except Nature, and Nature only applies to 3 rituals (not counting the ones that give you a choice, of course), one of which is Commune with Nature, which is similar to rituals I can do with Religion, and the other two of which are Animal Messenger and Traveler's Feast.
I'm happy to boost my defenses. If Light Shield Proficiency had no prereqs, I would take it.
See, now that's really terrible--that's the worst thing I've heard so far in any of the 4e threads. You're saying that I should pick my god based on the mechanics of the Channel Divinity feat and not on what god fits for my character concept. It's an attitude I was told I would not have to adopt in 4e, and if the designers weren't being honest on this, then I'm going to feel quite betrayed.
Also, do keep in mind, that even with Dex 13 and a good Channel Divinity, that only covers 2 out of 6 feats.
Rystil Arden
First Post
Yes, I know that. And with retraining, wouldn't I be an idiot not to pick feats based on my current adventure? I'm not being facetious here--I don't understand why I wouldn't pick feats based on my current adventure and retrain them later if the situation changes. It saves me from holding onto a completely useless feat for the levels that I do the adventure (I have no idea Out of Character how long it is supposed to last, but my character thinks we have barely scratched the surface of the keep and the cult's schemes).
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