D&D 4E 4e psudeo-retroclones

[Xethreau]

So, as we all know, 5e is coming. As most of us know, people use the OGL to make retroclones of previous editions - gutting certain rules and mimicing others to recreate one's preferred edition of the game.

With the Continuation 4e Manifesto, it has come to my attention that many retroclones for 4e are already in the works.

I wanted to open this topic up to this forum, and discuss the virtues of each of these projects so far. Let's start with the question:

Have you guys read any of these? What's going on in them?

 

[GreyICE]

Magic Sword - Already going in a direction I'm not fond of by page 2, their target is to make combat more brutal (Combat advantage means you roll twice, which raises your hit percentage by a lot, and flanking makes it easier to get combat advantage) and they want to reduce healing?!? Hello Rocket Tag.

There's also no coherent mathematical framework, as is evident by scrolling through the powers briefly. For instance a level 1 marshall power gives -1 to enemy hits - a 5% adjustment that, with the reworked combat advantage system, is even more meaningless than it otherwise would be (which is fairly meaningless). Meanwhile another hands out 2+CHA + 1/2 level THP.

It looks like some guy plonked out a bunch of powers in a 4E format which is about the exact OPPOSITE of what 4E is about.

You could buff and nerf forever, but it's not going to fix not bringing a mathematical framework in the first place.

Open 4E - It's hard to comment on a project that doesn't exist.

Basic Rules: 1%
Races: 33%
Classes: 1%
Combat Rules: 0%
Feats: 1%
Spells: 0%
Monsters: 0%

And again here we go...


Lets lay out two processes:

Process 1

WotC Employee 1: Oh man, lets make a fantasy game!
E2: Oh god, yes! It'll be based on D20, and make everything scale off that.
E3: Oh cool. We have the old 2E sourcebooks, I can convert dwarves
E4: Hold on a sec, lets sketch out what races will have. Humans get a bonus feat and bonus skill because they're versatile, everyone else gets like +2 to one stat and -2 to another, unless you wanna do something else for flavor
E2: Yeah, sounds good. Look, I've got a writeup for elves!
E3: What the hell, why do your elves have magic resistance? That's only the drow!
E2: Oh come on, lets make it all elves!
E3: That's stupid
E4: Yeah, no magic resistance for elves. How about this half orc? I made him strong, but stupid and uncharismatic.
E2: Oh yeah, right on! That plays into exactly what a half-orc is!
E1: FANTASY GAME HO!

Process 2

E1: Lets make a coherent balanced DND
E2: Okay, lets sketch out some basic rules, then start a framework
E3: Framework?
E2: We need math for everything
E4: I wanna make a dwarf
E2: Hmmm... races. What should they look like? Well they should boost ability scores, that's traditional
E3: Lets give them all a unique racial power
E2: Okay, but it should be balanced around being a certain level of good. We don't want it overpowered.
E1: We're getting too exact, we need to know what good is before we can make other powers good.
E4: True, lets try and develop a framework for what our classes can do so we can define what a good power is.



Everyone is doing process 1, which is HOW WE GOT INTO THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE

 

[adamc]

I'll just say: the details of the retroclone will matter a lot less than the quality of the tools. People obsess about rules, but I'm more interested in things like the character builder and the monster builder.

There is actually a lot of room to do things better than WOTC is doing them now. But if the only high-quality tools are for 5e, a lot of folks will move that-away regardless of their other opinions. The monster builder, in particular, helps make DMing relatively easy. The compendium also gets a fair amount of use...

Just a guess, informed by my own practices. I like 4e, it's easy to DM, but the tools are a key part of that.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Magic Sword - Already going in a direction I'm not fond of by page 2, their target is to make combat more brutal (Combat advantage means you roll twice, which raises your hit percentage by a lot, and flanking makes it easier to get combat advantage) and they want to reduce healing?!? Hello Rocket Tag.

There's also no coherent mathematical framework, as is evident by scrolling through the powers briefly. For instance a level 1 marshall power gives -1 to enemy hits - a 5% adjustment that, with the reworked combat advantage system, is even more meaningless than it otherwise would be (which is fairly meaningless). Meanwhile another hands out 2+CHA + 1/2 level THP.

It looks like some guy plonked out a bunch of powers in a 4E format which is about the exact OPPOSITE of what 4E is about.

You could buff and nerf forever, but it's not going to fix not bringing a mathematical framework in the first place.

Open 4E - It's hard to comment on a project that doesn't exist.

Basic Rules: 1%
Races: 33%
Classes: 1%
Combat Rules: 0%
Feats: 1%
Spells: 0%
Monsters: 0%

And again here we go...


Lets lay out two processes:

Process 1

WotC Employee 1: Oh man, lets make a fantasy game!
E2: Oh god, yes! It'll be based on D20, and make everything scale off that.
E3: Oh cool. We have the old 2E sourcebooks, I can convert dwarves
E4: Hold on a sec, lets sketch out what races will have. Humans get a bonus feat and bonus skill because they're versatile, everyone else gets like +2 to one stat and -2 to another, unless you wanna do something else for flavor
E2: Yeah, sounds good. Look, I've got a writeup for elves!
E3: What the hell, why do your elves have magic resistance? That's only the drow!
E2: Oh come on, lets make it all elves!
E3: That's stupid
E4: Yeah, no magic resistance for elves. How about this half orc? I made him strong, but stupid and uncharismatic.
E2: Oh yeah, right on! That plays into exactly what a half-orc is!
E1: FANTASY GAME HO!

Process 2

E1: Lets make a coherent balanced DND
E2: Okay, lets sketch out some basic rules, then start a framework
E3: Framework?
E2: We need math for everything
E4: I wanna make a dwarf
E2: Hmmm... races. What should they look like? Well they should boost ability scores, that's traditional
E3: Lets give them all a unique racial power
E2: Okay, but it should be balanced around being a certain level of good. We don't want it overpowered.
E1: We're getting too exact, we need to know what good is before we can make other powers good.
E4: True, lets try and develop a framework for what our classes can do so we can define what a good power is.



Everyone is doing process 1, which is HOW WE GOT INTO THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE

What do you mean "Everyone"? What do you think my manifesto was the first step towards? I have a vision in mind and even have mental drafts of a few classes including one that barely exists in 4e (the Shapeshifter* - and no, the Druid doesn't really qualify). But in order to get it right you need the structure and framework first. That said I'd be delighted to join with another project and halve the work. I also missed one crucial part off my manifesto - when I have a working draft I'm going to try to pitch it to someone like Cubicle 7 (starting there because I'm in London).

One project you've missed is Iadabaloth's over at rpg.net.

Also for an opening, new character classes should be able to be loaded into the old Offline Character Builder.

* I think I can get both a doppelganger and a garou out of the same class although it might be a slightly awkward fit.

 

[Dragonblade]

13th Age is not exactly a 4e retroclone, though it kind of is if you look at it the right way. Its more like a 3e/4e inspired take on AD&D, but its total amazeballs! By far the best 4e inspired d20 game I have seen so far.

I highly recommend checking it out. You can pre-order the core book from Pelgrane Press's website, and they already have a kickstarter going for the second book. Some of the Kickstarter reward levels include copies the core book as well, so you could just go straight to the Kickstarter.

Their Kickstarter needs more love, BTW. So please support it. It will have more classes and more cool stuff and I'll be super bummed out if it doesn't get funded. I'm also really digging their setting.

Honestly, I'm more looking forward to 13th Age than Monte Cook's new setting, though I am supporting both.

 

[Ferghis]

Link for the lazy: 13th Age expansion book: 13 True Ways by Fire Opal Media — Kickstarter

 

[FourWinds]

I agree with GreyICE 100%. What needs to happen, as Step 1, is to strip 4e down to its mechanical skeleton. Once we have that - which is dominantly mathematical - we can rebuild 4e around it. This is important because those mechanics cannot be copyrighted. It doesnt matter if its OGL or GSL or anything. With the bare mechanics on the table /then/ we can look at math-fixes and any other changes, though ideally not alot so it remains fully compatable.

If anyone is trying to go in that direction, sign me up.

 

[GreyICE]

I agree with GreyICE 100%. What needs to happen, as Step 1, is to strip 4e down to its mechanical skeleton. Once we have that - which is dominantly mathematical - we can rebuild 4e around it. This is important because those mechanics cannot be copyrighted. It doesnt matter if its OGL or GSL or anything. With the bare mechanics on the table /then/ we can look at math-fixes and any other changes, though ideally not alot so it remains fully compatable.

If anyone is trying to go in that direction, sign me up.

Me and Ryuken are going in that direction, although I got sidelined by labor day (I have a ton of good ideas though!)

 

[FourWinds]

I think what worried me about that thread was people talking about mucking about with the 3.5e SRD - which is really unnecessary.

At any rate, is all the discussion going on in that thread, then, or are there any other resources to look at?

 

[GreyICE]

I think what worried me about that thread was people talking about mucking about with the 3.5e SRD - which is really unnecessary.

At any rate, is all the discussion going on in that thread, then, or are there any other resources to look at?

We're yoinking terms from the 3.5 SRD because of the Open Gaming License. That would allow us to create a product... virtually at all. We can publish it online in a Wiki, we can use it, people could even make adventures for it, etc.

Basically all that's getting taken from 3.5E is the VERY basics. Characters have 6 stats, from 3-18. There exists Fortitude, Reflex, and Will (as static defenses, not saves). Characters have a race and a class. Etc.

If we use protected content, we're at the mercy of a single Cease and Desist letter from WotC, and WotC is legally obligated to send them (if you don't protect a copyright you lose the copyright - it's why Kleenex stopped being a brand name, and arguably why the OGL exists - DnD was about to go non-copyright due to not enforcing their copyright (TSR...).

Currently everything is found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lUJUNTuEGfoQhHtTmwoqex_N9kRwNg0bCr1ENsl8QHE/edit