D&D 4E 4e Save or Die?

[R.C Jr]

The early 4e hype said they would eliminate Save or Die effects. Have they? In that case, are there no powers like disintegration? And how do medusas work without petrification? Just looking for some clarification.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

Mostly, Save or Die effects are gone. You can find the occasional weird ability for a monster or PC, but they are not the standard tactic of any sane spellcaster like they were in 3.5.


Medusas still petrify, but it is a gradual effect. you have to fail multiple saves over multiple rounds before you are completely turned to stone. While you are slowly turning to stone, you progressively lose the ability to move, and you and your allies have some time to find ways to stop the petrification process (by granting extra saves, for example).


Disintegrate is not an instant kill: it just does a large amount of damage on a hit, plus some ongoing damage. (In 3.5, Disintegrate wasn't a Save or Die, either, it just did a lot of damage.)

 

[Obryn]

The early 4e hype said they would eliminate Save or Die effects. Have they? In that case, are there no powers like disintegration? And how do medusas work without petrification? Just looking for some clarification.

They have eliminated anything that's basically a single save vs. death.

First, a quick primer on 4e saves... Generally, all effects last at least one round. If you are taking ongoing damage, that's taken at the start of your round, before anything else. At the end of your round - after doing everything - you get to save vs. each of the effects that are on you.

Generally, saves are more or less a coin flip. 10 or higher on a d20 is a successful save. There are all kinds of ways to modify this, however... Wizards can inflict penalties, special powers can, feats and items can give you bonuses against certain conditions... Anyway, this will work for the moment.

Disintegrate: Much like in 3.5, it's not a single save vs. death. It's got two main uses - utility-wise, you can use it to zap an inanimate object, and it turns into dust. Or, if you use it to zap a creature, it does a hefty amount of damage, a serious amount of ongoing damage, and when you save against that, you have a lower amount of ongoing damage until you save one last time. It's not a weak spell, basically.... you take a lot of damage at first, then it works on dissolving you for at least 2 more rounds.

Medusas are pretty tense; we had one last session. Instead of turning an enemy instantly into stone, the petrification happens over a few rounds. Much like you'd expect, they have a gaze attack vs. Fortitude. If it hits, the target is slowed. On a failed save, the target is immobilized. If they fail the save on the second round, they're petrified. It only amounts to a 20% chance of petrification each time a character is affected by the gaze, but remember that combats last quite a few more rounds in 4e, and that medusae have more HPs than you'd expect. They also have some very potent poison (which boosts their petrifying gaze), and a good ranged attack.

I've found that the series of saves is a really fun effect. It gives the character's allies a chance to do something about the condition (by giving them extra saves with their own abilities), while gradually ratcheting up the tension.

-O

 

[Regicide]

Saves got turned into defenses so it's more a get hit and die. Although now it's not so much die, it's more like, take some damage and get stunned for a round, repeat until you die.

 

[filthgrinder]

One thing to remember as well is that "saves" have been off loaded into the defenses (Fortitude, Reflex, Will), which a spell an attack requiring a d20 roll. In 4E saving throws are just a 50/50 duration check for a condition as opposed to a saving throw in the "traditional" sense. The idea is to give the effect/no effect | hit/miss "power" to the attacker as opposed to the defender.

 

[BendBars/LiftGates]

There was a cool alternate magic system to the Iron Heroes game a few years back, written by a guy named Harry Pratt. It had a version of disintegrate that just dealt a lot of damage, with a note that any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by the spell was reduced to dust. That more than suffices for disintegrate.

I think this works great for an RPG, rather than introducing new subsystems to handle different ways to save-or-die. A medusa's gaze deals poison damage. Anyone reduced to 0 hp by this poison is turned to stone. A bodak deals necrotic damage with its gaze. Anyone killed by this damage gets his soul eaten by a bodak. Etc. The downside would be that the abilities don't have the same scary effect of "you can't rely on your hp to save you and never know when the monster's gaze will snuff out your life" but I believe that was outlawed in 4e for not being fun enough.

 

[Mort_Q]

In 4E saving throws are just a 50/50 duration check for a condition as opposed to a saving throw in the "traditional" sense.

That'd be 55/45 if you have no bonuses.

 

[Nebten]

There was a cool alternate magic system to the Iron Heroes game a few years back, written by a guy named Harry Pratt. It had a version of disintegrate that just dealt a lot of damage, with a note that any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by the spell was reduced to dust. That more than suffices for disintegrate.

That's the definition of Disintegrate in D&D 3.5 too . . . Uncanny!

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Medusas are no longer fail a save and die...they are now...get hit on the bad guys turn then fails two saves and die.

Not really that different.

D "lost a character to a medusa in 3 turns" S

 

[Bolongo]

Medusas are no longer fail a save and die...they are now...get hit on the bad guys turn then fails two saves and die.

Not really that different.

And if you meet a medusa in a situation where you for some reason can't go back to town for a ritual to de-stone the victims (I'm looking hard at a certain published adventure here), some creative DM fudging will be necessary...