4e Skill Challenges

[delericho]

Since a Skill Challenge is meant to replace a combat encounter, failing it means that you now will have less XP than you're supposed to have

Should a pre-generated adventure assume that the PCs are going to hit (and win) every encounter? If not, why does it matter that they'll be a little XP behind? (Does the notion of "less XP than you're supposed to have" even have meaning in that case?)

That segment of that adventure reminded me very much of the worst parts of some of White Wolf's Vampire adventures: "If the PCs do X, then Y happens. If the PCs don't do X, than Y happens anyway..."

 

[Stoat]

I think the best example of a skill challenge in play that I've seen is in the DMG2 at the beginning of the section. The sample challenge involves PC's tracking a demon back to its lair, and I think shows how a skill challenge can be organic and transparent in game.

For my part. I prefer Stalker0's Obsidian system. I don't roll initiative, and I don't make the PC's go in any particular order. Also, if a player wants to sit out, I let 'em. In that case, I just treat it as an encounter for fewer PC's, which is easy with Obsidian.

For social type challenges, I've found that the DM has to be fairly active to keep everyone involved and prevent one or two PC's from dominating. Out of character, I'll turn to a player and flat out ask, "what're you doing during all this?" In character, I'll have the NPC's accost players who are trying to keep quiet, "What about you? I don't trust you at all!" My goal is to get a dialog going, where I'm talking in character and everyone at the table is responding.

 

[Jhaelen]

Every time I try one (specifically as the DM), it brings the flow of the game to a crashing halt as everyone takes turns trying to figure out how his or her character can meaningfully contribute to the challenge with whatever motley assortment of skills happens to be available. Players ask what the heck they can do with this or that skill. The DM hums and haws as he or she tries to make judgments. Suddenly everyone's stuck in initiative order, and it's not even combat.

Since I haven't seen anyone mentioning it yet: You don't roll initiative for a skill challenge. The DMG1 description has been revised.

Your description sounds a bit like there's a deeper problem in your group:
If the player's don't know what they can do with their skills, they don't seem to use their skills very often.

In my group the players make skill checks all the time. They have a very good grasp what they can and cannot do with their skills. Sometimes they ask me if they can make a certain skill check, sometimes I'll ask them to make certain checks.

A skill challenge is really no different. In fact the first 4E skill challenge I ran went by without anyone noticing that they'd been engaged in a skill challenge (although, to be honest, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not).

Edit: I just noticed that said skill challenge happened to be the one Stoat mentioned above...

Anyway, I think, the way to go is to simply ask the players what their characters want to do and then tell them what check to make. This way it doesn't matter if they don't know what they can do with their skills.

Regarding the Trollhaunt skill challenge: Yep, it's a bad example. Unfortunately, there's plenty of bad examples in the official modules. Fortunately, there's a few good examples in DMG2.

 

[keterys]

So basically just do what I did in 3.x, only use the actual specific number of successes versus failures to determine outcome, rather than just winging it?

Winging it makes it mostly a check against the capriciousness of the DM, with streaks of autowin mixed with a couple of 'Oh, you rolled a 1, this bad thing happened' and a lot less firm thinking of - if they succeed, this cool story option happens. If they fail, this other cool story option happens. Sometimes it works great with the DM, sometimes it doesn't, and codifying things along so they don't take too long, give out xp, have pre-defined good and bad results, is a good thing.

Some groups dig knowing they're in the challenge and working through it in various ways (Stalker's Obsidian is good for groups like that) while others don't want the immersion broken. For those, I'd suggest the invisible skill challenge. They still end up getting extra xp and their skills still matter.

Just remember that when lots of people roll, turn checks into group checks where a majority need to pass or something similar, not 'Okay, I guess that's 3 successes and 2 failures for the same check'

Regardless of what you do, lower complexities -or- high complexities over an extended time are probably the way to go. 12 skill checks in a row can throw people off, but 5 here, combat, 5 there, rest or 2 a day over a week in a city, etc. Those all are less glaring.

 

[Morrus]

The way I do it:

1) Never, ever, ever mention or hint to your players that they're in a skill challenge.

2) Never let them see you recording successes or failures. Never give them a list of available skills.

3) Use the available skills as guidelines for how to set DCs for things your players think of. Don't get too strictly caught up with what's on the page.

4) Your players should suggest what they're doing, and then you tell them what skill to roll; not the other way round.

5) Feel free to provide stimulus to your players to prompt them to tell you what they're doing. If one of the options is "History DC 15: A character remembers that the Duke's father was killed in a battle 20 years ago", then you casually mention "You see a portrait of a man who looks similar to the Duke hanging above the fireplace". If a player asks about it, THEN tell him to make a History check. If he succeeds, tell him what he remembers. If he fails, tell him that despite searching his brain, he doesn't recognise the portrait. Secretly record the success of failure.

6) Feel free to break skill challenges up. I ran one which lasted the entire session (a travel skill challenge), and broke it up with a couple of mini-encounters in the middle of it.

7) Again, NEVER mention the words "skill challenge" to your players! From their point of view, you are just asking them for skill checks occasionally when they say they want to do something.

8) Narrate, narrate, narrate.

8) If stallling, throw in something to create the skill roll. In my journey skill challenge there was a vague description about how an Athletics check could help overcome obstacles. So I said "There's a snowdrift blocking your way" and they immediately threwa bunch of suggestions as to what they were trying at me. One wanted to use Nature to find a better path, another wanted to use Perception to do same, another wanted to use Athletics to climb around it, etc. So they all made their checks, I described the result, they got past the snowdrift and I marked down a couple of successes.

 

[Betote]

The best way I've seen skill challenges presented was basically, "OK, here is your goal - to (escape the city while it's crawling with guards/sneak into the active keep's treasury/figure out how to make the ancient Dwarven transport mechanism work again). Tell me what of your talents and skills are you using to make this happen."

Then, let the players tell you what skills they're using, why they apply, and make the rolls and see what happens. The DM has the determination whether a given skill use makes sense, and any modifiers which apply.

That's exactly how I've ported the skill challenge concept to my Pathfinder games

 

[Quickleaf]

All right, I have to admit that, despite playing 4e as both player and DM, I simply don't get how to really integrate skill challenges, specifically the roleplaying-based out-of-combat ones. Every time I try one (specifically as the DM), it brings the flow of the game to a crashing halt as everyone takes turns trying to figure out how his or her character can meaningfully contribute to the challenge with whatever motley assortment of skills happens to be available. Players ask what the heck they can do with this or that skill. The DM hums and haws as he or she tries to make judgments. Suddenly everyone's stuck in initiative order, and it's not even combat. It feels artificial and forced. It is artificial and forced.

So, without inventing a whole new mechanic, how have others gotten around this issue? How have you integrated skill challenges transparently and seamlessly into play?

I am another fan of Stalker's Obsidian rules because those don't punish failure. However, you don't want another set of rules, you want to make them work as written.

I agree with the comments about ditching initiative order, and I would also ditch a preset list of "available skills." Instead focus on developments that make the skill challenge dynamic, the consequences of a failed/successful check and how it changes the encounter, and what success and failure mean. If you can pin those things down as a DM before hand you'll probably run a great skill challenge. Knowing which skill does what is largely irrelevant - let the players' creativity be rewarded. A skill challenge is a creative, not a strategic/tactical, experience.

 

[GuJiaXian]

A lot of good advice here; I appreciate it.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Man, if only there was some website out there had comissioned work from an experienced RPG writer. He could write a regular column about RPGs; and one of those columns could give really good advice on how to run a skill challenge! Man, that would be awesome! It would totally help the OP with his problem! If only there was something like that out there somewhere...