D&D 4E 4E: The day the game ate the roleplayer?

[wolfen]

Tell me how 1e and 2e facilitated a fighter trying to listen at a door. Or a wizard trying to sneak quietly, past a guard. Or a cleric to tumble. The answer came back to one of two answers a.) You can't or b.) I'll create some ad-hoc rule to allow it.

Exactly. And creative, intelligent RP-oriented DM's went with B. The rest of the sheeple went with A. This element of the game will always be true.

But here's what I'm getting at re: your statement above: It used to be that I was sitting there in my chain mail wanting to sneak down the hall. And I realize "Is this gonna work? I mean...I'm in chain, I'm not a rogue, etc. etc." and there weren't good rules to know how it would work out. And so I had the Same Feelings And Thoughts that one might expect my Character to have. You see? So the sense of trepidation, anxiety, etc....went with The Unknown. By virtue of the fact that I was already going through what my character was going through, Role Playing was easier. And I could *Feel* more of the anxiety and wonder.

Contrast that with not only knowing what you have to roll, but ruling out an action before you even start because you know what you have to roll. Knowing the odds *exactly* of success and failure is an obstacle-to-overcome in trying to play the character. Yeah, that's always been a factor...but the more knowledge the player has the more UNLIKE his character he is in many situations. And it is inevitably, unarguably more challenging to get into the headspace at that point. See?

And what I'm saying is -- I can see how this lack of clearly defined rules would irk people. And I can see how it might empower others creatively. Intelligence, maturity, the relationships between the DM and players, etc....so many variables. And yet the solution DnD is using is the only variable they have control of -- the rules. More rules. And so forth. For groups with lots of troubles in those other gaming variables, more rules might be good. For others, it might be less good.

In the end, I'm sure 4e will support role-playing. If I could RP with legos when I was 10, I can RP with 4e now...

I think you're right in the sense that Gamers either support the RP or they don't. And if they want it, they will wind up adapting the rules to emphasize that priority. But people new to the genre may not *get* to certain understanding of roleplay if they feel the rules discourage improvisation.

 

[hong]

I think my point is more in the range of

Party A: Fighter, does 10 dps in melee as a 3e style tank. Rogue, does 10 dps by spring attacking. Wizard, shoots 10 dps at range.

5 levels later...

Using the same tactics Party A: Fighter, does 15 dps in melee as a 3e style tank. Rogue, does 15 dps by spring attacking. Wizard, shoots 15 dps at range.

I took out cleric just to maintain the consistency of the effect were talking about. My point is that with the roles as they are the result may change numerically but the delivery remains constant. Consistent, different in potency, still pretty much the same thing.

This will change as power increases with more tactical options I'm sure but with the tiers I'm suspicious that classes will look the same at higher levels as they did at lower levels only with bigger, shinier guns.

Just a gut feeling. Not hating on 4e. Just not to optimistic about class builds being as varied as they're lauded to be.

Don't worry. Fly and invisibility are still around.

 

[Doug McCrae]

But here's what I'm getting at re: your statement above: It used to be that I was sitting there in my chain mail wanting to sneak down the hall. And I realize "Is this gonna work? I mean...I'm in chain, I'm not a rogue, etc. etc." and there weren't good rules to know how it would work out. And so I had the Same Feelings And Thoughts that one might expect my Character to have. You see? So the sense of trepidation, anxiety, etc....went with The Unknown. By virtue of the fact that I was already going through what my character was going through, Role Playing was easier. And I could *Feel* more of the anxiety and wonder.

I don't agree with this.

PCs should know the rough chance of performing common everyday activities like climbing and sneaking. The element of the unknown remains because you don't know what the result of the d20 is going to be. Also, the situation you describe will only work once because thereafter the DM's houserule will be revealed and you will know the odds.

It's downright peculiar that what one would suppose to be the most mysterious aspects of the universe - spells, magic items, monsters - are precisely defined and quantified, whereas swimming in the village pond and crafting horseshoes remain areas of shadowy, occult confusion.

 

[Jhulae]

It's downright peculiar that what one would suppose to be the most mysterious aspects of the universe - spells, magic items, monsters - are precisely defined and quantified, whereas swimming in the village pond and crafting horseshoes remain areas of shadowy, occult confusion.

QFT.

While there is some 'randomness' thrown in by a die roll, if I'm playing a fighter wearing chain trying to sneak, I should already realize that this is a 'bad plan' and that it's most unlikely to work, but maybe I *could* get lucky and bypass the guards. There should be no 'trepidation' involved.

 

[helium3]

The DM asked us to decide what we were going to do to help ourselves escape, decided what skill governed each thing, and had us roll skill checks. We could set our own difficulties, with higher difficulties coming with more spectacular successes but lower chance of succeeding. Once we'd accumulated enough successes, we succeeded. I assume if we'd accumulated enough failures first, we would have failed.

This does sound very cool. For some reason it reminds me of how you would work magic in Mage : The Ascension. I absolutely loved that system because of how free form it was.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

And I realize "Is this gonna work? I mean...I'm in chain, I'm not a rogue, etc. etc." and there weren't good rules to know how it would work out. And so I had the Same Feelings And Thoughts that one might expect my Character to have. You see? So the sense of trepidation, anxiety, etc....went with The Unknown. By virtue of the fact that I was already going through what my character was going through, Role Playing was easier. And I could *Feel* more of the anxiety and wonder.

IME the sense of trpidation came with the 'Unknown' of whether the DM will rule the same way he/she did last time or the previous DM did... which makes my Fighter/Thief in chain with a 2-h Sword either a cool and playable concept or a waste of time.

That was the best...and worst.. character I played. Entertainly competant with one DM {quite sub-par compared to a pure fighter or thief} and completely inept with another DM {who went hog-wild with the nerf-bat.. couldn't hide by standing still in a deserted city and was immediately marked as a Thief by any passing guardsmen.... tried to rob an affluent merchants store after a busy market day and netted somewhere around 5 silver pieces in a store that the cheapest item for sale was 50gp... anyway...}

I prefer the 'standardized' rules framework of 3x and apparently 4e, which allows the roleplaying elements to be draped over a consistant mechanical support, to the vagueries of previous editions...which left you wondering if your character could even attempt mundane tasks.

 

[wolfen]

I don't agree with this.

PCs should know the rough chance of performing common everyday activities like climbing and sneaking. The element of the unknown remains because you don't know what the result of the d20 is going to be. Also, the situation you describe will only work once because thereafter the DM's houserule will be revealed and you will know the odds.

First off, they can look at their level, class, and ability stats to get a "rough" chance of anything -- including how tough the monster will be. That's different from having a list of numbers to add and subtract and then calculate to a much greater degree nearly exactly what their chances would be.

Second, PC's should know the rough chance of performing common everyday activities. But roleplay involves doing things that are uncommon to the character. Climbing may not be so common or everyday to the waifish elf mage. And that is the kind of scenario I'm addressing.

Third, why does the DM have to reveal his decision process? Frankly I liked the games where the DM told me to roll and gave me the outcome. Period. But trusting the DM to *have* and follow his process is metagame variable the rules cannot account for...so they cater to (or confuse) the lowest common denominator.

It's downright peculiar that what one would suppose to be the most mysterious aspects of the universe - spells, magic items, monsters - are precisely defined and quantified, whereas swimming in the village pond and crafting horseshoes remain areas of shadowy, occult confusion.

Mysterious aspects of *what* universe? Certainly not Faerun, where the average stable boy knows more about magic than he knows about horseshoes. Point being, what you are addressing is a matter of the game world and non-ruleset variables (eg, what the characters should know or expect).

I'm not saying 1e or 2e were "better because they had huge holes in the rulesets." I'm just saying there are odd consequences to "improving" the game.

 

[hong]

Mysterious aspects of *what* universe? Certainly not Faerun, where the average stable boy knows more about magic than he knows about horseshoes. Point being, what you are addressing is a matter of the game world and non-ruleset variables (eg, what the characters should know or expect).

I'm not saying 1e or 2e were "better because they had huge holes in the rulesets." I'm just saying there are odd consequences to "improving" the game.

If one of these consequences is the inverting of the D&Dism that magic is so commonplace that "the average stable boy knows more about magic than about horseshoes", it will be glorious. Why, it might even improve versimil verismil verimis believability, so the s*mul*tionists will no longer need the great gleaming edifices of rationalisations they have constructed in the last 30 years.

 

[Umbran]

Exactly. And creative, intelligent RP-oriented DM's went with B. The rest of the sheeple went with A.

Wolfen, you're fairly new here, so I should point out - the rhetorical form of, "Everyone of worth does it this way, and all the sheep do it the other way" is not acceptable here. It amounts to, "If you don't agree with me, you are stupid," and insults like that are against our posting rules on EN World.

You are free to disagree with others, but please show respect for them, and their opinions. If you've got any questions about our codes of conduct, please feel free to e-mail any of the moderators - our addresses are available in a post stickied to the top of the Meta Forum.

 

[wolfen]

Wolfen, you're fairly new here, so I should point out - the rhetorical form of, "Everyone of worth does it this way, and all the sheep do it the other way" is not acceptable here. It amounts to, "If you don't agree with me, you are stupid," and insults like that are against our posting rules on EN World.

You are free to disagree with others, but please show respect for them, and their opinions. If you've got any questions about our codes of conduct, please feel free to e-mail any of the moderators - our addresses are available in a post stickied to the top of the Meta Forum.

As you wish, Oh great one.

I tried PM'ing you but I guess I can't because I'm not a donater, or something. Anyway, I think you jumped the gun and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. But if you don't like the word sheeple I will no longer use it. It was meant as a "People who follow the book the way sheep follow the herd." Wrong word choice, perhaps. But certainly not the **** you posted.