4E, the Grind and Why I Play

I wouldn't QUITE go that far. I would say that I really want more variety in play.

In 3e, there was a big difference in the strategy of playing a wizard vs. playing a cleric vs. playing a fighter vs. playing a psion vs. playing a monk vs. playing a rogue.

I have three Assault Swordmages (Air Genasi, Earth Genasi and Deva) and all three play differently. My Air Genasi has been very much a secondary controller and is built for mobility. The Earth Genasi is fairly versatile with a fair amount of movement powers but the ability to "tank". The deva is front-line melee-based.

Same class, different power selections. While the Air Genasi WANTS to be in the enemy backfield, the Deva doesn't necessarily want that job, etc.
 

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Not to "thread jack" Anthony's thread but I wanted to respond to that question.

1. Class Same-ness. I looked at some of the powers for various classes and even at higher levels they seemed to do the same amount to damage. 2d8, 2d6 psionic, cold whatever.

2. Minions.

3. Skill challenges.

4. Extremely difficult to convert to prior editions.

5. Junking prior settings in favor of a default 4e setting.

Mike


So...the new edition is bothering you about the new edition? :p

Just kidding.

Seriously though, let me ask this: what editions are you trying to convert to? I find that conversions of any edition of D&D to any other is difficult if you're trying to "mirror" everything. If you just think about intent, any edition to any other edition is very easy, in my mind. I converted almost the entire box set of Castle Zagyg: Upper Works to 4e in about a week. It was a breeze. But that's because I very much just tried to read the intent of the encounters, and build that intent into a 4e-style encounter. In fact, I find 4e style encounter maps are awesome (more stuff going on) and are great to port into older version games.

Minions...what's the issue here? If you hate 1-hit-1-kill, give them 1st hit = bloody, 2nd hit = killed. Or ignore them altogether. They are just a tool for the DM, and should be used as such only as necessary. More of a play-style choice.

Skill challenges: don't use them. Think of what the intent of the challenge is, and break it down to some individual skill checks. I run skill challenges pretty loosely: goal of the challenge, players tell me how they want to approach it, I have them roll. Failures cause drawbacks, successes cause them to get closer to reaching the goal. I don't really add up successes vs. failures as an arbitrary number, but rather have a set number of successes and a list of WHAT HAPPENS with each failure. Failures may or may not negate the goal of the challenge, but are often big enough issues that failing is obviously not ideal.

I find skill challenges to be the easiest thing to ignore or tweak in the new edition, and it is very dependent on the group as to how they work (if used at all).

Junking prior settings...well, I'm used to that. All the settings I like get cancelled or die out eventually. If you already own the old books for the setting, why not use that? I think people marry setting & rules to often, and I think that's a problem when editions change. Once again, you can convert based on intent. Was the setting low-magic? Use the many houserules to pull magic items out of the game and replace with static bonuses at various levels (only play martial classes, perhaps?). Were there nimble lizardfolk as player characters? Reskin a monster race, or just change up a Dragonborn's benefits. Did the moon constantly rain down purple bunnies that could chew threw metal in an instant, but left flesh alone? Look at Rust Monsters for rules on metal-eating, or make up your own.

Damage: Perhaps expanding the list of Conditions would help you out, and then tack those on? For example, create a condition that goes with any fire attack (perhaps Spontaneous Combustion), and have the effect of that condition be fire related (character must save or burst into flames for another dX damage). More variance in damage, and it's not just tied to one class or something, so it's still balanced. Obviously my fire example is stupid (just use ongoing fire damage), but if you get my intent, maybe you can cobble something better together.

Just to be Devil's Advocate, what was so different about damage and/or attacks in older editions that made it more interesting? A fighter at high level rolled 6 attack rolls, and rolled 2d6+15 each time he hit. Or the wizard rolled no attack roll, hit 6 enemies for 8d6 damage, but the enemies got a chance to save. Now, my numbers may be silly, but the point is: you have two players who roll a bunch of d6s (and one of them gets to roll a couple d20s, while the other watches the DM roll a bunch of d20s). Is there really that much difference?

Final piece of advice: if combat, skill challenges, conversions, settings, minions, etc. don't work for you, you may not be playing the right game. Perhaps everyone else in your group plays 4e, though, so you have to deal. But in that case, what do you care if Billy is playing a mechanically similar character to you? Can't you roleplay yours differently, or maybe use cooler looking dice from Chessex or something? Maybe you are annoyed by that fact, but IMHO, that's not a big deal to me. YMMV


I feel like my post is ranty, so please excuse any offense, as it was not intended. Bad day at work and all.
 

Speaking for myself, the "sameness" issue in 4E is a matter of the choices being so trivial. I play D&D for the sweep of high adventure and the thrill of decisive action, for the excitement of taking risks that leave victory or defeat hanging on a toss of the dice.

How are the in game decisions in 4E any less decisive than those in any other edition?

Out of game, i would argue that they are more significant, since there is less power disparity between the decisions, this makes more options valuable, which creates larger opportunity costs when you choose any option[since the other options are just as good].
 

decisive 1. having the power or quality of determining; putting an end to controversy ...

... as opposed to prolonging it for another 45 minutes. There is (for me) a happy medium between the extremes -- say, 10 to 15 minutes for a minor encounter and 30 or so for a major one at middling to high levels, perhaps as little as a third of that at low levels (1-3).
 

decisive 1. having the power or quality of determining; putting an end to controversy ...

... as opposed to prolonging it for another 45 minutes. There is (for me) a happy medium between the extremes -- say, 10 to 15 minutes for a minor encounter and 30 or so for a major one at middling to high levels, perhaps as little as a third of that at low levels (1-3).

The combat in 3e took just as long as the combat in 4e typically, so i am not sure what your complaint is.
 


According to that post, Ariosto is expecting the end of the adventure boss fight to last 10 minutes for low level PCs.

He plays older editions than 3e.

PS

That is like 2 rounds if everyone is really really really fast[1 minute per player, 4 players, 1 minute for the DM, including resolution]. How did you end an end of the adventure boss fight in 2 rounds for low level PC's in older editions[assuming you can resolve your rounds that fast anyway]?
 

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of 3E combats, either.

In older editions, a whole minute per player per round would be s l o o o w!

Advanced (1st ed.) -- and also Original in most of my experience -- is simultaneous moves, which really moves.

What will you do? Beginners, and folks who are naturally slow at expressing their thoughts, require patience. More typically, a dawdling player is a dawdling character.

Often, the team "caller" will be ready with the players' plan by the time the DM is done deciding for the monsters -- so even that "per player" factor does not really come into the equation.

Number of figures does not make a big difference in actually moving them (if one is even using models). Dice don't have to be rolled one at time.

Low levels mean poor chances to hit, but also few hits to fell a foe; at high levels, those factors tend to be reversed. The accumulation of hit points by player-characters slows after "name" level. As attrition wears down hit points from fight to fight, other resources (such as spells) tend to get depleted as well.

A fight could be settled in just a couple of rounds, or even a single one (e.g., four 3rd-level fighters slay half a dozen kobolds and put the rest to flight). A giant fully surrounded by fighters of adequate level might go down in three or four rounds -- while a couple of the men each "take one for the team". A really bitter high-level fight could go 16 rounds or more ... but it might take only a minute or two per round.

An hour? That's epic!
 

Tournament style, The Ghost Tower of Inverness allows five players three hours from passing out character sheets. Even after spending half an hour equipping themselves, a good team might complete the scenario with time to spare. Of course, that typically means dealing very quickly with some (especially the earlier) of the 33 encounters. Some situations just are not worth allowing to use up precious time.

Many an expedition might involve seven or eight players. I have seen teams of as many as 10, and heard of larger ones -- but I would prefer to go with fewer characters of higher level (and players with commensurate experience).
 

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of 3E combats, either.

In older editions, a whole minute per player per round would be s l o o o w!

Advanced (1st ed.) -- and also Original in most of my experience -- is simultaneous moves, which really moves.

What will you do? Beginners, and folks who are naturally slow at expressing their thoughts, require patience. More typically, a dawdling player is a dawdling character.

Often, the team "caller" will be ready with the players' plan by the time the DM is done deciding for the monsters -- so even that "per player" factor does not really come into the equation.

Number of figures does not make a big difference in actually moving them (if one is even using models). Dice don't have to be rolled one at time.

Low levels mean poor chances to hit, but also few hits to fell a foe; at high levels, those factors tend to be reversed. The accumulation of hit points by player-characters slows after "name" level. As attrition wears down hit points from fight to fight, other resources (such as spells) tend to get depleted as well.

A fight could be settled in just a couple of rounds, or even a single one (e.g., four 3rd-level fighters slay half a dozen kobolds and put the rest to flight). A giant fully surrounded by fighters of adequate level might go down in three or four rounds -- while a couple of the men each "take one for the team". A really bitter high-level fight could go 16 rounds or more ... but it might take only a minute or two per round.

An hour? That's epic!

In the campaign where I used to play 1E and 2E twenty years ago, major battles might run into two hundred - three hundred, up to five hundred rounds over two full session. And that was with a group of 10-14 players...
 

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