D&D 4E 4E Theme - Catching the "sense of wonder"?

[Glyfair]

Looking at Bruce Cordell's latest blog entry, I was reminded of some things that have been discussed about 4E monsters by the designers. One of the things they considered a major positive was the players not knowing what was coming around the corner. When they fought a monster, they didn't necessarily know how it was going to fight. After all, did you know that hobgoblins keep strange beasts?

Thinking of all the changes in the core background, I begin to see a pattern. They are keeping enough of the old D&D to make it "D&D." However, they are also not afraid to change things to keep it fresh.

Lots of complaints I've seen lately on the boards about 3E has dealt with a lack of "sense of wonder." It's been discussed pretty thoroughly, but a strong case was made that "sense of wonder" comes with learning the game and the game world, not knowing what's coming around the corner.

Perhaps one of the major goals of 4E is to try to recapture some of that sense of wonder. Keep the players off their toes. Make it easier for a DM to improvise a monster on the fly or adapt it quickly. Come up with fresh evocative themes that haven't already been tread on a billion times.

Thoughts?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Lots of complaints I've seen lately on the boards about 3E has dealt with a lack of "sense of wonder." It's been discussed pretty thoroughly, but a strong case was made that "sense of wonder" comes with learning the game and the game world, not knowing what's coming around the corner.

Was it really a strong case? Because all I remember was being told to shut up, and then finding out that I was in the "AHattery Afoot On EN World" thread at CM. It would have been very nice had more people said "You know what? That's a strong case." back then!

In any event, though, this is one of the things I approve of in the 4e re-design. It does seem that I'm bound to yo-yo on this version of the game, as things are revealled, because there are some that I really like and others that make me gnash my teeth!

(BTW, templates and monster advancement should have accomplished this in 3e, and did at some tables. Quicker templating, shorter stat blocks, etc., would certainly help, as would the ability of the DM to easily create new monsters.)

RC

 

[Glyfair]

Was it really a strong case?

Well, I'm sure there were many things. However, it was a strong case for being one of them.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Perhaps one of the major goals of 4E is to try to recapture some of that sense of wonder. Keep the players off their toes. Make it easier for a DM to improvise a monster on the fly or adapt it quickly. Come up with fresh evocative themes that haven't already been tread on a billion times.

If they pull it off, I'll be very happy. My DM got really pevved when one of the gamers pulled out the appropriate MM to look up the stats for a monster and find a way to counter it before making a role to find out if his character would even know what it was.

 

[rounser]

One of the things they considered a major positive was the players not knowing what was coming around the corner. When they fought a monster, they didn't necessarily know how it was going to fight.

I hope that this doesn't translate to yet again having no rules for anyone knowing anything in-character about any monster they face. It's a bit of a glaring omission if it's not in there, especially when they're covering things like social encounters with rules...but not knowing whether Johnny Fighter knows that trolls regenerate or not without resorting to metagaming or DM fiat.

 

[Nebulous]

If they pull it off, I'll be very happy. My DM got really pevved when one of the gamers pulled out the appropriate MM to look up the stats for a monster and find a way to counter it before making a role to find out if his character would even know what it was.

Of course the DM got peeved! A player should never do that, not without good reason or permission from the gamemaster. That's just as bad as looking behind the screen and reading the game notes.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

If they pull it off, I'll be very happy. My DM got really pevved when one of the gamers pulled out the appropriate MM to look up the stats for a monster and find a way to counter it before making a role to find out if his character would even know what it was.

But that can happen in 4th Ed. too if Gamers buy the MM.

As DM I found it easy to bring back the sense of wonder and maybe fear to my players.
Instead of "you face a Troll" I changed the description to something resembling a Yeti and instead of Acid and Fire he could not regenerate Cold and Sound. Voila, new Creature.
Easy.

But making Monsters more interesting, that is good. Hobgoblins with monstrous pets makes them more interesting. I like this.
But you do not need a new edition for this, a simple article in Dragon and the DMs can use this idea.

 

[an_idol_mind]

Changing the way a monster is presented can things mysterious for so long. As people gain experience with the system, they'll figure out the way monsters work. It's up to adventures, not rulebooks, to provide a sense of wonder by using the creatures presented in a new, unique, and interesting way.

 

[Lackhand]

Get enough of the "dragon magazine article-worthy" ideas together, and it's worth a new Monster Manual, at least.

And along the way, you come up with rules for how to handle a variety of facets of the monsters -- common Improved-Grab-like, Grapple modifying mechanics inform the grapple rules; you really want X to still be threat at Y level, so you make damage from Z environmental effect scale better; new bits of treasure.
Maybe the rules were already there, but badly presented.
You justify a new DMG pretty easily, that way, too.

The PHB comes from noticing what went wrong while playtesting the monsters.

Bass ackwards, but still.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

Well, flawed mechanics like grapple are a complete different thing for me.
I had and sometimes have this sense of wonder still with AD&D 1st ed.
And 1st edition is not a system without flaws.

Sense of wonder IMO is the presentation of the Monsters and the players finding the right way to defeat them.
We have 5MM from WoC and we have the Setting specific MMs , we have 3 Tome of Horrors from Necromancer we have 2 Monsternomicons from Privateer, we have the Book of Templates by Goodman Games and we have the Advance Bestiary by Green Ronin. We have the Fiendish Codex 1-2 and we have Lords of Madness, the Draconomicon and Liber Mortis. We have the Book of Fiends by Green Ronin and so many more Books.
I for my part have enough ideas for Monsters to last a lifetime.

But to amend flawed mechanics and complicated advancement of monsters and all the other minor and major quirks helps me as a DM to do my work faster and easier.
But it does not bring back the sense of wonder.