D&D 4E 4E Thought Experiment

[Korgoth]

I had a stray thought regarding running a 4E game. Probably nothing will come of it, but I thought I'd run it by you people since you're all well-versed in this sort of thing.

It would be intended to be different from the way 4E usually plays (I tried it and didn't like it). I would be Reffing... assume for the purposes of discussion that I'm not a doofus (most trainwrecks of gaming happen almost entirely due to Ref Doofosity) and am smart enough to avoid obvious problems. What would potentially get me are the hidden beartraps... those mechanical traps that get sprung on you when you don't expect it, and you didn't see coming.

The premises would be as follows:
1. Sword and Sorcery, like Conan.
2. PCs limited to Martial classes only, human race only.
3. Monsters (non-humanoid) would be quite rare, non-Minions, hopefully custom.
4. Human/oid adversaries would be @90% Minions.
5. Magic items would be rare.
6. Magic spells would be limited to Rituals.
7. Assume that I'd just handwave XP; maybe only up to Level 10.

So the idea is that Conanic types (or think Homeric types from the Iliad) lawnmower their way through mooks until the heroes come to blows, then it's regular (heroes vs heroes) combat. I hate long combats... if we have 1+ hour to do a boardgame, let's play an actual wargame that I enjoy. I'm shooting more for like @20 minute combats except for really important ones.

My main questions (in addition to any issues you would kindly point out) are these:

1. I don't know from Rituals. In the 4E game I played, I only saw 1. How cool can they be? How S&Sy?
2. Are there guidelines for making my own monsters? I'd rather not use the stock models.

Especially on Rituals - how much mileage could a campaign get out of only those? Keeping with the Conan theme... spells are not for blasting, though they may be for summoning tentacled monstrosities or commanding legions of ravening man-apes. Some magician's tricks are really caused by rare and powerful magic items.

 

[Mort_Q]

Sounds like a 4e Iron Heroes.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

I have to say rituals are perfect for S&S, you will probably need to add alot of your own rituals, But rituals seem designed especially for S&S


I've been planning to run a game just like this myself but it's not really my players style so I won't.

 

[Mengu]

I'm shooting more for like @20 minute combats except for really important ones.

I'm not sure if this is an achievable time frame for the 4.0 combat engine. For being able to use a good scattering of at-will, encounter, and daily powers, 6 rounds would be normal. With 5 players and 1 DM, say they are all super efficient and the players take 1 minute for their turns, and the DM takes 2 minutes, 42 minutes will be the average combat length, over twice as long as what you're trying to achieve.

You will have to make some heavy modifications. Maybe limit people to 1 at-will power, and 1 encounter power they can use. You can change daily powers to once per level powers. And you can get rid of action points too, so people won't be pondering "do I use an action point or not". This would limit options significantly, making decision process and resolution faster since it's easy enough to memorize what your 1 at-will and 1 encounter power do, and you wouldn't need 6 round combats, 3-4 round combats might be sufficiently colorful.

Of course you'll have to adjust some defense numbers, damage, hit points, etc to work in this framework. In the end it's not going to look anything like 4e, but it might get close to your time goal.

 

[interwyrm]

So the idea is that Conanic types (or think Homeric types from the Iliad) lawnmower their way through mooks until the heroes come to blows, then it's regular (heroes vs heroes) combat. I hate long combats... if we have 1+ hour to do a boardgame, let's play an actual wargame that I enjoy. I'm shooting more for like @20 minute combats except for really important ones.

You could try converting some combats into narratives or skill challenges. Lawnmowering through mooks doesn't have to involve rolling attacks vs. minions.

 

[Garthanos]

You could try converting some combats into narratives or skill challenges. Lawnmowering through mooks doesn't have to involve rolling attacks vs. minions.

Thats certainly an interesting option... I argue something that could go in to genre emulation guidelines for 4e, even.

 

[Amaroq]

I've been running a fairly similar campaign: low magic world, human-only party, all martial save for one "snowflake" sorcerer.

We've gone with the "two hit minion"; I shoot for basically a creature with enough hit points to survive the usual hit with an At-Will, but few enough that it dies on an At-Will critical, or from any use of an Encounter power. I think that'll work well for you; hewing through one-hit minions may be a bit "too easy"; also it keeps the players from pinpointing that they're one-HP wonders.

I do typically custom-stat many monsters, whether that's bringing a printed monster to the correct level, or simply making something up to fit my mind's eye of what the bad guy does. I use "Monster Maker", which you can find at Monster Maker - Asmor.com, but if you have a D&D Insider subscription, you may prefer the DDI "Monster Builder" Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Tool (D&D Adventure Tools).

Rituals should be fine for what you're looking for, I'd say you can even go so far as to allow Villain spellcasters in combat, to really fit the Conan theme. As you're doing with monsters, feel free to make up rituals for the bad guys .. you can even outlaw the Ritual Caster feat for your PCs and keep magic entirely a DM tool.

If you're going ultra low magic items, you'll want to give your PC's attack and defense bonuses at appropriate levels, there have been plenty of threads on this in the House Rules forum.

Cheers,

 

[MatthewJHanson]

What you describe should work.

If you have access to the DMG 2, you probably want to look at the rules for inherent bonuses (p 138).

I am a little curious what you want to do with combat. How often do you see them fighting against a mob of humanoids vs. a monster? If you are using only minions you can probably cut down combat time a lot, but you also probably won't challenge the players. Also fighting all minions biases game play towards certain builds. Bursts and blasts are more powerful, while strikers lose their main shtick.

For what you want, you might not even want run fights against standard humanoids. Just let the PCs win, or maybe have each make a single roll to see how well they do in the battle.

 

[mkill]

I'll quote in italics for convenience.

1. Sword and Sorcery, like Conan.

We'll, that's fantasy, isn't it? Shouldn't be too hard.


2. PCs limited to Martial classes only, human race only.

Races:

Players lose a lot of variety for their character building this way. All humans by story is no problem, but you should still allow choices. You can do that by reskinning different races as human cultures. Elves could be natives from the jungle, half-orcs and goliath could be nomad or barbarian tribes, dwarves could be stocky mountain people. Half-elves come from the mechant cities at the coast. Just assign appropriately when world-building.

You can even explain Tieflings or Deva this way, they are born from human parents, but under some auspicious sign, a family curse or something similar. An eladrin is a human child stolen by the fey at birth.

If you do that for half a dozen races, that's enough. You don't have to come up with explanations for everything, just tell your players that if they want to play another race, they need to come up with a backstory how a human ends up with these abilities themselves.


Classes: Meh. I'm a strong believer in a DM style that gives players maximum freedom to imagine their characters. Your campaign will be much richer from it.

You're better off declaring classes like Wizard super-rare, a secret lore only transmitted from master to apprentice. You can create the necessary low-magic athmosphere by how the common people react to wizards, even without limiting player abilities themselves.

Don't forget that the PCs are special - they are expected to be. Whether there is a Sorcerer in every village, or only one per continent, depends entirely on your game world. And if there is only one per continent, it's even more natural that he'll be (or become) a hero of legends, i.e. a PC.


3. Monsters (non-humanoid) would be quite rare, non-Minions, hopefully custom.

4th edition monster stats are pretty generic. You can reskin everything easily. For example, I used a Hobgoblin Warcaster when I needed a human wizard, and all I did was change the name. 20%-30% of my monsters are like that. I don't think I've custom-created a 4th edition monster yet, I usually find old code to repurpose.


4. Human/oid adversaries would be @90% Minions.

I tend to use a healthy dose of minions, but don't overdo it. It's nice to wade through armies of enemies once in a while, but don't expect anybody to get excited about it when it happens every session. There is only so much fun in "you hit, remove minion from battlemat".

Most of the time, you're better off narrating it like this:

"You slash through the first line of the incoming army, piling up bodies. The soldiers behind them respectfully move to the side, and clear the path for you to face off against their champions. Roll initiative."


5. Magic items would be rare.

That is really no problem. The PCs can still wield magic items, it's just that these will be legendary weapons handed down by the gods themselves, rather than enchanted by some wizard (another DM in our group does that). These items will grow in power as the PCs level up.

Or, you can just declare the items as created by a master smith, soaked in dragon blood, made from purple worm scale or eternium rocks, possessed by the spirit of a great warrior, or whatever you want to come up with. In my campaign arc we've had an item that was a ripped out eye from the carcass of a demon. It floated around the head of one character. Now that I think of it, arcane enchantment is probably the most boring explanation for a magic item, and you're better off without it anyway.

You can also check DMG2 for benefits that don't depend on items, as someone already stated. All in all, by design, 4th edition characters need a weapon, a set of armor, and a neck slot item, you can remove the rest without changing the game balance much.


6. Magic spells would be limited to Rituals.

4th edition handles combat spells and rituals as completely different things.
You're better off leaving the combat spells in and more-or-less removing rituals. The reason is that combat spells are the same as martial attacks with added special effects. Shooting someone with an arrow and shooting someone with a magic missile looks different, but accomplishes the same.

It's the rituals where stuff happens that goes beyond what mortals can achieve through training. No matter how much you practice and study, you won't bring someone back from the dead without divine intervention.



7. Assume that I'd just handwave XP; maybe only up to Level 10.

No problem at all. I do that too, no difference.


I hate long combats... if we have 1+ hour to do a boardgame, let's play an actual wargame that I enjoy. I'm shooting more for like @20 minute combats except for really important ones.

Just consider 4th edition the "wargame that you enjoy" (and if you don't, no need to bother DMing it, really)

In 4th edition, a combat that lasts 20-minute was probably unnecessary. You're better off planning one big, awesome fight per session and spend the rest exploring and interacting in character.

1. I don't know from Rituals. In the 4E game I played, I only saw 1. How cool can they be? How S&Sy?
[...]
Especially on Rituals - how much mileage could a campaign get out of only those? Keeping with the Conan theme... spells are not for blasting, though they may be for summoning tentacled monstrosities or commanding legions of ravening man-apes. Some magician's tricks are really caused by rare and powerful magic items.

We've been playing since 4th edition came out, and I can't remember a time where a ritual did much. They're mainly window dressing. If I was to DM a low magic campaign, they are the first to go.

Of course, rituals could still exist as a plot device, since someone still needs to create that undead army that the PCs will fight.

If you're used to 3rd edition D&D, remember one big change:

NPCs DO NOT USE PC RULES.
As a corollary:
NPCs ARE NOT BOUND BY PC LIMITATIONS.

If you need a legion of ravening man-apes created by a mighty wizard, there will be a legion of ravening man-apes created by a mighty wizard. You don't need to think about how a PC wizard would create one. You don't need to check whether a there is a ritual for creating a legion of ravening man-apes in the Player's Handbook. You just tell the PCs that there is a legion of ravening man-apes and let them roll initiative.

 

[the Jester]

The premises would be as follows:
1. Sword and Sorcery, like Conan.
2. PCs limited to Martial classes only, human race only.
3. Monsters (non-humanoid) would be quite rare, non-Minions, hopefully custom.

So far I'm with you. Sounds like a fun way to tweak the 4e system with minimal work, and unlike some people, I believe that restricting available races and classes can make for a better game ("better" meaning "more suited to the flavor and genre you are trying to achieve").

4. Human/oid adversaries would be @90% Minions.

While I like carving through heaps of bad guys as much as the next guy, I am going to agree with the other folks who have said not to overdo this. Most encounters should have one or two real threats imho.

5. Magic items would be rare.
6. Magic spells would be limited to Rituals.
7. Assume that I'd just handwave XP; maybe only up to Level 10.

I'm liking all this, too.

My main questions (in addition to any issues you would kindly point out) are these:

1. I don't know from Rituals. In the 4E game I played, I only saw 1. How cool can they be? How S&Sy?

Very. They perfectly capture the flavor of magic in e.g. a Conan story, where the bad guy has to spend the time performing a ritual to summon a demon etc. I think that "rituals only" is a great approach to magic in a setting of this style.

2. Are there guidelines for making my own monsters? I'd rather not use the stock models.

DMG 184. The first page in 4e that I learned to love as a dm.

Especially on Rituals - how much mileage could a campaign get out of only those?

A whole lot. And yeah, with total Conan flavor.

Sounds to me like you are totally on the right track for achieving what you're after.