D&D 4E 4E Thought Experiment

[WalterKovacs]

I suggest keeping an eye out for the Dark Sun Campaign Setting coming out later this year. There will likely be some concepts that can be stripmined for use in this context.

Low/no-magic item can be handled in system (the characer builder/DMG2 has the inherent bonus thing to give the basic bonuses to attack, damage and defenses expected by the core magic items of weapon/implement, armor and neck slot item). The ritual concept can be used for the PCs, especially scrolls as they don't require the PC to learn/master the ritual. This allows for a one shot ritual instead of something they can repeat later on.

Martial Power 2 has the martial "equivalent" of rituals called Martial Practices, which are techniques that are learned, such as how to disguise yourself, or set up a campsite people can't find, craft a high quality weapon (that is basically magical, but without any properties other than the base bonus to hit, damage and crit bonus damage), etc ... Stuff that is possible by a normal person, but still something not everyone can do, it must be learned and it takes time and "energy" (i.e. healing surges) to pull off.

In terms of high minion content ... the lack of a controller class will make them slightly more challenging. The limited number of class options isn't actually that bad as those four classes have the most options thanks to Martial Power 2 already being out. If the players want a bit more variety, allowing hybrids may be a good idea (also, there are a number of pseudo-multiclass paths in the form of weapon mastery feats, etc).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So the idea is that Conanic types (or think Homeric types from the Iliad) lawnmower their way through mooks until the heroes come to blows, then it's regular (heroes vs heroes) combat. I hate long combats... if we have 1+ hour to do a boardgame, let's play an actual wargame that I enjoy. I'm shooting more for like @20 minute combats except for really important ones.

One way to do this without any big houserules is just to handle larger areas with multiple opponents as one encounter where the opponents arrive in waves, or the players reach them dunring their exploration. Just don't allow a short rest in this time, and the players will still feel challenged, as their healing resources and offensive resources grow thinner. The time between the individual "sub"encounters could still be filled with exploration or roleplaying.
Works probably best in dungeons.

1. I don't know from Rituals. In the 4E game I played, I only saw 1. How cool can they be? How S&Sy?

S&Sy they should be. Cool - depends on your definition of cool. I think conjuring Phantom Steeds to fly around (even though that's higher level) can be cool. Knock is still pretty unexciting, regardless of how useful it could be.

2. Are there guidelines for making my own monsters? I'd rather not use the stock models.

It is pretty easy. The DMG contains the guidelines - benchmark attack/defense values, and damage values.

But notice that "stock monsters" is all relative - "stock monsters" in D&D 4 are not "generic Kobold Level 1" but consist of 4-n monsters of that race, with various abilities. The "stock" part for monsters like Orcs or Kobolds is just typically a common thematic ability. (Kobolds are renown and hated for their "shifty" ability).

 

[Neonchameleon]

2. PCs limited to Martial classes only, human race only.

Here I'd argue for flexibility to maintain the style. Sure, Barbarians are primal. But unless you pick one of a handful of powers they can easily pass for Martial. Likewise Monks, some Bard builds (i.e. ones that avoid implement powers), and carefully built Wardens or Avengers.

1. I don't know from Rituals. In the 4E game I played, I only saw 1. How cool can they be? How S&Sy?
2. Are there guidelines for making my own monsters? I'd rather not use the stock models.

Especially on Rituals - how much mileage could a campaign get out of only those? Keeping with the Conan theme... spells are not for blasting, though they may be for summoning tentacled monstrosities or commanding legions of ravening man-apes. Some magician's tricks are really caused by rare and powerful magic items.

Rituals are cool, very S&Sy, and underused. Mostly because they cost money - and a lot of it by heroic tier standards.

 

[LostSoul]

1. I don't know from Rituals. In the 4E game I played, I only saw 1. How cool can they be? How S&Sy?

Not very. You don't get much in the way of summoning/controlling monsters, it's hard to spy on people, you can't hypnotize them or bind them to your will... smoking the black lotus doesn't help, making blood sacrifices to alien gods won't either.

Luckily you have me around.

I made up two new rituals. The first is called Blood Sacrifice.

Level: 1 Component Cost: varies
Category: Creation Market Price: 50 gp
Time: 1 hour Key Skill: varies
Duration: varies

You prepare a creature for sacrifice. Select one of the following:

Enhance Ritual (Arcana, Nature, Religion): You add the level of the victim as a bonus to any checks you make while performing a ritual, and to your own when determining what rituals you may cast. The component cost is 1/2 of the ritual you intend to cast.

Render Components (Arcana, Religion): blah blah blah fluff text; the gp value is equal to 1/5th of a random monetary treasure parcel of the victim's level (x2 for elites, x5 for solos). Component cost: 100 gp. Focus cost: 100 gp. Optional Focus: A rune-carved golden knife (250 gp) adds a +2 bonus to your check.

Release Necrotic Energy (Religion): kill the creature, focus the necrotic energy, it lasts for 8 hours. The necrotic energy is the same level as the victim. This aids in raising undead.

The DC of the check you must make is Moderate of the victim's level; failure means that you gain nothing from your actions.

Optional Focus: You gain a +2 bonus to your check if you use a specially prepared altar.


Here's the other one:

Raise Undead

Level: varies Component Cost: varies
Category: Creation Market Price: varies
Time: 8 hours Key Skill: Religion
Duration: permanent

You use this ritual to create an undead creature. Each specific type of undead requires a different ritual; each ritual has its own level. The level of the ritual is 4 levels higher than the undead that is being created. Component cost and market price are standard for that level.

At the end of the ritual, make a Religion check. The DC is Hard, set by the ritual's level. If the check succeeds, the undead obeys your commands (though more intelligent undead will resent such control). If the check fails, the undead rises free-willed with its own agenda.

Requirements: This ritual requires a source of necrotic energy, of a level at least equal to the undead being raised.


The "Raise Undead" ritual can be used for any other summoning/binding ritual, and you'd need to get different rituals for "Summon Succubus", "Summon Spined Devil", "Raise Skeleton", "Raise Zombie", etc.

For the Black Lotus, take the poison in the DMG, reduce its cost to something reasonable (100 gp or so), and add on a +2 bonus to ritual checks.

For hypnotizing someone, make a ritual that requires a captive subject and then allows you to run a skill challenge to hypnotize them. Skill challenges can be tricky to run but in this situation they work well. Just make sure the player says exactly what he's doing, and when you call for checks make them matter. Use the level of the captive to set the DCs, not the level of the PC.

If you run it well, what the PC says (ie. what the player says) will set the conditions and limitations of the hypnotism.

For spying on someone, maybe extend the length of the scry rituals; maybe check out the one from Open Grave that allows you to focus and see through a specially-prepared undead creature's eyes. Expand that to allow a sorcerer to see through the eyes of their thralls.

 

[Garthanos]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/269661-d-d-4th-edition-sword-sorcery.html

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

LS, I think if you look around there are actually published rituals that do some of the things you're talking about. Obviously for the rest you can make up new ones (yours sound good at first glance). Ritual magic is INTENDED by 4e to be open ended. They have a good number of specific rituals but I think the whole point of the subsystem is that its pretty easy for DMs to mess around with it since it is more an RP/adventuring kind of resource and tied more to plot and story than to mechanics for the most part anyway.

In any case even in an S&S setting PCs could in theory get tangled up in ritual casting. Its just likely that its VERY hard to find any ritual formulas lying around. Perhaps a few really low level ones exist that are commonly known by the occasional witch or shaman. You can also easily refluff your rituals. Make them require components like 'blood of a virgin' or whatever and you go a long ways towards getting the feel you want.

As one of the other posters said earlier though, unless the PCs are going to be expected to use ritual magic there's no real reason to bother creating the details of the rituals beyond whatever notes you need for story purposes. If the evil sorcerer Thyrmenies raises a legion of undead its not like you need to know what the DC was or even how much it cost to cast it. A legion of undead appears, and the party proceeds to slice and dice them.

 

[LostSoul]

LS, I think if you look around there are actually published rituals that do some of the things you're talking about.

I know there's one for controlling a drake of some kind... any others? I'd like to check them out!

(The reason I came up with these was to emphasize strategic aspects of play.)

 

[Korgoth]

Thanks for the replies.

LS, I really like those rituals. That's the kind of stuff I would be looking for.

For this sort of thing, it would be interesting if one or more of the PCs was interested in using ritual magic. All the more opportunities for ethically questionable adventure.

 

[Dan'L]

For this sort of thing, it would be interesting if one or more of the PCs was interested in using ritual magic. All the more opportunities for ethically questionable adventure.

You might consider giving the players an optional build for certain martial classes that swaps out one of the existing class features for one that supports PC interest in ritual casting:

Class Feature: Student of the Arcane - You gain the Ritual Caster feat as a bonus feat, allowing you to use magical rituals. You own a ritual book, and it contains two rituals you have mastered, (one pre-determined for the class*) and one 1st-level of your choice. In addition, add Arcana to your list of Class Skills.

*Suggestions for customizing for each martial class:

Rogue - Use Student of the Arcane in place of First Strike. Make Comprehend Language or Secret Page the pre-set class ritual.

Warlord - Use Student of the Arcane in place of Combat Leader class feature. Make Gentle Repose the pre-set class ritual.

Ranger - Use Student of the Arcane in place of your Fighting Style**. Make Animal Messenger (or Create Campsite, if you want to bring PHB2 into the picture) the pre-set class ritual.
**I chose to replace Fighting Style to limit the number of "free" feats given. If you think this hamstrings the Ranger too much in combat, or in Paragon Path choices, I suppose you could replace Prime Shot instead.

Fighter - Use Student of the Arcane in place of your Fighter Weapon Talent. Make Make Whole the pre-set class ritual.

-Dan'L

 

[mkill]

LS, I really like those rituals. That's the kind of stuff I would be looking for.

For this sort of thing, it would be interesting if one or more of the PCs was interested in using ritual magic. All the more opportunities for ethically questionable adventure.

If you want really ethically questionable rituals, remove alchemic components from the game world (or make them very very rare) and declare that blood or sacrifice is necessary instead. Say, a healing surge is equal 100 gp. If you kill a rat for the ritual, that's equal to 50 gp. 500 gp for a deer. 1000 gp for a human. 3000 gp for a virgin. 20.000 gp for a dragon. 1.000.000 gp for a demi-god...

Suddenly, that campaign world gets pretty gritty, and normal villagers have a strong reason to be suspicious of everybody who looks like a spellcaster.