D&D 4E 4e's Inorganic Loot System: Yay or Nay?

[Psychic Robot]

I kind of think verisimilitude is used as a cover by GMs who want to be jerks. "Oh, you beat Orcus, he has 5 magic items... *roll roll roll* Oh, looks like you lucked out and got a +1 longsword, a tanglefoot bag, and a potion of cure light wounds."

The junk that adds so much wonderful flavor to the simulation just annoys players. The way parcels are decided now is like saying "Hey... give your players what they want, don't be a jerk, and take off the cape."

I think that gamism is used as a cover by lazy, uncreative, dullard GMs who want to play a miniatures wargame that doesn't bother with things like role-playing and immersion.

(See how that goes? See how it doesn't add to the thread in any way? See how it's baiting? Also, I'd work on your counting a little bit, unless five somehow equals three in your anti-verisimilitude world.)

 

[WhatGravitas]

I think that gamism is used as a cover by lazy, uncreative, dullard GMs who want to play a miniatures wargame that doesn't bother with things like role-playing and immersion.

But then, the random treasure wasn't better as well. Because it was very possible to create nonsensical results.

The parcels, however, are implicitly saying "tailor me to the spot where you put the parcel", which probably encourages thinking about sensical treasure distribution much better than "roll for it".

If the DM just doesn't bother with verisimilitude, then the parcel system will at least produce more balanced and useful loot. If he bothers, the parcel system won't hinder him.

Cheers, LT.

 

[DLichen]

If the DM just doesn't bother with verisimilitude, then the parcel system will at least produce more balanced and useful loot. If he bothers, the parcel system won't hinder him.

Cheers, LT.

I kinda wish that quote was in the DMG, the clarity is astonishing.

 

[CountPopeula]

I think that gamism is used as a cover by lazy, uncreative, dullard GMs who want to play a miniatures wargame that doesn't bother with things like role-playing and immersion.

(See how that goes? See how it doesn't add to the thread in any way? See how it's baiting? Also, I'd work on your counting a little bit, unless five somehow equals three in your anti-verisimilitude world.)

You might be on to something, actually. There's probably a reason I abhor White Wolf games and spent so much money on reaper, games workshop, and Anima products.

But I fail to see how giving out sub-par loot in a game that makes a core assumption that players have optimal loot as part of the power level of the game increases verisimilitude and simulationism. I don't feel too much immersion from constantly rolling new characters because my big reward from the crowning encounter of the adventure is something that might have been slightly useful 10 levels ago, thus falling far behind the power curve.

 

[small pumpkin man]

The current loot system--if I'm understanding it correctly--does not allow for high-level monsters to have things like a bag of tricks. Instead, it automatically gives players a magic item of level X, then level X +1, then level X +2, etc. With monsters like dragons (who traditionally have a vast quantity of items), it is logical to assume that there would be some low-level magic items thrown in with the "big ticket" things. However, this doesn't happen in 4e with the parcel system (as I understand it; correct me if I'm wrong).

I think you might be missing things. Firstly, you are aware you don't have to give them in order right? The dragon will probably have one level + 5 and one level +1, plus a bunch of cash and maybe some potions, the parcels are just descrete amounts that should be given out over the course of a level.

In previous editions, players could get treasure they didn't need because treasure was rolled randomly, so even a balor could have a +1 longsword in his junk closet.

And this was complained about. A lot. "My players have a bag of +1 longsswords, no-one in the party even uses longswords! Magic items should be special!" etc.

Now I know obviously this wasn't you, and it's possible they've gone too far in the other direction, but it was a bug, and I'm sure you can see why they've gone in this direction.

I also think the kind of thing your looking for is better done by choosing the items, not by rolling randomly, I'd be happy to give the Balor a magic lolipop that tastes like human flesh, or decide he needs an Iron rind of the Dwarf Lords just because (even though it's several levels lower than one would expect) and cash them as "art objects" by sell value, but I seriously doubt I'd ever give one a plus one sword.

 

[Sphyre]

The current loot system--if I'm understanding it correctly--does not allow for high-level monsters to have things like a bag of tricks. Instead, it automatically gives players a magic item of level X, then level X +1, then level X +2, etc. With monsters like dragons (who traditionally have a vast quantity of items), it is logical to assume that there would be some low-level magic items thrown in with the "big ticket" things. However, this doesn't happen in 4e with the parcel system (as I understand it; correct me if I'm wrong).

In previous editions, players could get treasure they didn't need because treasure was rolled randomly, so even a balor could have a +1 longsword in his junk closet.

I don't see how that couldn't be done with the parcel system, although you're not wrong per se. You can give your dragon say... 5 parcels of the treasure for the level. Then to get multiple small items in there with the hoards of gold, you can 'buy' the low level items to fill it out.

It's a very easy guideline system, imho. If you don't use it as a guideline, but rather as strict code, I can see it losing a bit of the verisimilitude, and lacking the horde that you traditionally might have given.

I have, for example, broken up parcels into even smaller parcels. Basically, it's the 'wealth guidelines' cut into chunks that make it easy to track how much you've given out throughout the game, rather than having to "double check" that PCs have the appropriate wealth for their level. I actually just have the list of treasure and cross it off as I give it out.

 

[Jack99]

I do what i have done for 20 years. I give out some loot when I feel it's needed/they deserve it.

Has worked so far.

 

[ryryguy]

EDIT: I should clarify, since my post seems to have caused a bit of confusion. It's not the parcels themselves that bother me; it's that they are distributed in an exacting manner of level X item, level X+1 item, level X+2 item, and so on.

Ok... so to answer that specifically, yes I think the even distribution of items could seem a little bit artificial. I think the worst case scenario would be to hear a player say something like, "Ok, we've gotten 3 items this level, I guess we'll be getting the level 5 item in one of the next couple of encounters."

But for me, even that worst case scenario doesn't outweigh the benefit of an easy way of providing a good & balanced set of items to the party. I also think that the worst case scenario is unlikely to happen. The items will be distributed over a large number of rewards in a given level, especially if the DM does a good job of putting them where they make sense.

 

[eamon]

If I were DM (which, once we switch to 4e, I will be no longer), I'd consider the loot system to be a guide first and foremost, and definitely include the odd things to increase believability. Secondly, I think of the loot packages to be abstractions: sure, the PC's find low level junk, but it all falls into the category "sell... sell... sell..." and is merely part of the generic value of a section of loot. When they find "plain" loot that's valued at 10000 gp, it'll consist of silver goblets, diamonds, low-level magic, etc. Merely for the purposes of practicality and fun will they just note down the gold-piece value. Only exceptional stuff like abnormally high-level magic warrants explicit mention, much like not every detail in the environment deserves to be described.

 

[FireLance]

I'm sure that some DMs will find it useful, but it's too much trouble for me. Whenever the PCs level up, I'll just ask the players to choose one Level+1 magic item, one magic item of the same level, and one Level-1 magic item for thier PCs. They also get gold equal to the value of a Level-1 magic item to buy whatever else they want.

I don't have to deal with placing treasure or second-guessing what the players want, the players get to customize their PCs' gear, and the PCs will be more or less equipped to handle challenges of their level, which further reduces DM prep time for me. I'm surprised that anyone else would want to do things any other way, really. (I kid, I kid. )