4th ED Vision of Mystara
AdmundfortGeographer
Getting lost in fantasy maps
I'd say it is rather not so coincidentally.Navior said:
On that matter, I'm pretty certain that The Five Shires Gazetteer was published before the Gray box which would put "Hin" as a Mystara-originated term if it really matters. But it really doesn't, it was all Ed regardless.
No world was so tightly integrated with the rules like Mystara and BECMI. Well, maybe Al-Qadim and the AD&D2e Kits might come close. Converting Mystara to 4e might be too problematic to be done from on high and given to others to use. The most successful Mystara conversions are done by individual DMs who can emulate their preferred amount of BECMI out of the particular destination rules. Each DM wants to emulate different levels of BECMI.
Cthulhudrew
First Post
Eric Anondson said:
Yes and no, really.
Obviously, the world was designed as a backdrop campaign world for the BECMI rules sets, but once the Gazetteers began to come out, they increasingly started to create new rules and make changes to the fundamental notions of how things are.
The changes pretty much started with Gaz3, which introduced the Secret Crafts (much akin to Prestige Classes of later years). Little by little, additional things were added that changed the underlying BECMI rules:
- Elves who progressed as wizards beyond their "max" levels rather than as fighters (Gaz5)
- Dwarven clerics (Gaz6- breaking the "rule" that race=class)
- Halfling Masters (Gaz8- giving clerical/druidic spellcasting to halflings)
- Humanoid classes (Gaz10- giving more character options, and providing rules for progressing powerful creatures as characters; not dissimilar to what 3E did with Savage Species)
These were just from the Gaz line. The Voyage of the Princess Ark series and other supplements added new rules as well, notably:
- Half-Elves (breaking the "rule" that there were no half-elves on Mystara)
- Rakasta and Lupins as races who could choose classes (breaking the race=class separation completely)
Thus, as the world developed, and design needs outgrew the underlying system, changes were wrought and implemented that were outside the scope of the basic BECMI system. The changes didn't break the world that had already been developed, though, just added to it. So I don't think (and, as you may have guessed, have argued) that Mystara is really limited or tied too closely to the original rules to be able to work with other mechanics.
That said, though, I think any new version of the world should be as mechanics-free as possible, to make it accessible to the greatest amount of possible interests. IE, it should be developed primarily as fluff, with crunch appearing as sidebars and/or supplements to such for others to use.
Jhulae
First Post
epochrpg said:
They're braids, not dreadlocks.
And, to be honest, Mystara would be a great fit for 4e. All the limited informaiton I've read about 4e reminds me of Rules Compendium time and again.
I'd love a return to Mystara, as it was always one of my favorite campaign worlds.
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
As long as they adapt the ruleset to the campaign setting, and not the other way around? Why try to shoehorn dragonborn or tieflings into the setting when you have enough weird races to fill a whole sourcebook with alone? I don't think Mystara would need that many changes in the first place to work with 4E (just as it worked nicely with 3E out of the box, IMO), since it was designed around a pretty bare-bones set of rules compared to the current editions, and always was adaptable to new stuff coming in from the Gazetteers, Dragon Magazine, or the Creature Crucibles.
What would be helpful, of course, would be a translation of Mystara monsters to 4E, the updated racial stats for Rakasta, Lupin, Tortle, etc. and maybe some regional specific rules (The Seven Schools of Glantri spring to mind, for example).
I don't think Mystara would need that many changes in the first place to work with 4E (just as it worked nicely with 3E out of the box, IMO), since it was designed around a pretty bare-bones set of rules compared to the current editions, and always was adaptable to new stuff coming in from the Gazetteers, Dragon Magazine, or the Creature Crucibles.What would be helpful, of course, would be a translation of Mystara monsters to 4E, the updated racial stats for Rakasta, Lupin, Tortle, etc. and maybe some regional specific rules (The Seven Schools of Glantri spring to mind, for example).
AdmundfortGeographer
Getting lost in fantasy maps
I'm not sure am qualified to speak for all or even most Mystara fans, but following the conversations on the Mystara Mailing List for years I think I can say that many fans looked at as either a mixed bag or a betrayal.glass said:
A mixed bag because it reprinted a ton of material from the Gazetteers. Indeed it looked like almost 95% of the material in the Karameikos and Glantri gazatteers were reprinted in the AD&D 2nd Ed boxed sets. However, the boxed sets were done with very high production values of the sort that drove TSR into financial insolvency during TSR's final years.
Also, while Mystara grew out of the BECMI rules—which had long had the (incorrect) reputation for being a starter rules set for AD&D—Mystara as a setting grew into remarkable depth, maturity, history, and complexity. Possibly rivaling FR. With the AD&D 2nd Ed box sets, Mystara seemed to be reimagined as a starter setting. Something for new DMs and Players to get their feet wet before moving on to greener pastures.
As a betrayal goes, the AD&D 2nd Ed episode seemed to wipe the slate clean with regard to the depth, maturity, history, and complexity that had grown up over the decades. Mystara grew up being known as "The Known World", a cluster of unbelievably (!) diverse nations and people in a small corner of a larger continent. Then as the adventures came out lands just beyond were added to the consciousness. Isle of Dawn immediately to the east, Sind and the Great Waste to the immediate west, Empire of Alphatia on the other side of the Isle of Dawn, Isle of Dread to the far south, Norwold to the north, the Serpent Peninsula beyond Sind, the Savage Coast beyond the Serpent Peninsula. Then the explorations of the Princess Ark travelled to the megacontinent of furthest Davania to the south, then to the moon above, and back to the Hollow World beneath.
Mystara was the only world (at the time!) with the entire planet surface mapped out. The Hollow World accessory line mapped out the entire interior as well.
With the AD&D iteration of Mystara, all that development was seemingly erased and everything outside the Known World was "forgotten". There was a line of products called the Poor Wizard's Almanacs that came out yearly. Each yearly issue updated the stats of each nation across the surface and interior of the planet. Updates to armies. A calendar of major events for that entire past year. With the AD&D line, the very next year's Almanac only covered the Known World, with no acknowledgement of anywhere else beyond the Known World. Indeed, places outside the Known World were referred to as whispered legends only believed about by madmen. A lot of fans had campaigns in this lands, especially Alphatia, Hollow World, and Savage Coast. Suddenly, it felt like floor was pulled out from beneath.
Byrons_Ghost
First Post
Count me in as one of the people who doesn't see the need for an "official fan conversion", really of Mystara or any other setting. No one is going to agree anyway, so we might as well leave it up to individual DMs.
When I was running under 3e, I didn't worry too much about direct number conversions, I just made stats as I went for what I needed at the time. It really doesn't matter if Henri D'Ambreville is a straight wizard or a wizard/rogue. As long as he keeps poisoning his family members, it's all good.
The intro text on Gleemax sounds like a good idea, especially since Mystara's never really had a setting intro or single point of entry (X2 and the Rules Compendium were the closest, I think). Eventually, the intro text could be ported over to some sort of wiki where people post their own 4e mechanics, in a "this is what I made for my game" kind of way, rather than trying to agree on a single thing. Individual DMs can then cherry pick as needed.
When I was running under 3e, I didn't worry too much about direct number conversions, I just made stats as I went for what I needed at the time. It really doesn't matter if Henri D'Ambreville is a straight wizard or a wizard/rogue. As long as he keeps poisoning his family members, it's all good.
The intro text on Gleemax sounds like a good idea, especially since Mystara's never really had a setting intro or single point of entry (X2 and the Rules Compendium were the closest, I think). Eventually, the intro text could be ported over to some sort of wiki where people post their own 4e mechanics, in a "this is what I made for my game" kind of way, rather than trying to agree on a single thing. Individual DMs can then cherry pick as needed.
thundershot
Adventurer
Personally, I think they should take both Mystara and Greyhawk, tear out all of the cool things and just integrate them into the core rules. Neither of them need a whole campaign setting, IMO. Take the gods and locales from Greyhawk (like the CITY OF GREYHAWK), and critters like Rakasta and Tortles and locales like the Isle of Dread from Mystara and utilize them toward the new default setting.
I know I'm going to get slammed for having that opinion... *hides*
Chris
I know I'm going to get slammed for having that opinion... *hides*
Chris
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