4th Edition and girls

[Halivar]

So, I ran a KotS game last night with three newbies. One was an old, OLD player, who didn't remember the rules for 2nd but was well-versed in roleplaying, one was a girl who, unlike most girls, enjoys sci-fi and fantasy, and the third was a housewife.

The third player was intrigued by the idea of creating a character and telling a story, so I played up the roleplay aspects of D&D to keep her interest. Things went fine until the first combat. She enjoyed picking out a mini for her character, but that's as far was she went. After two rounds of combat, she knew that this was not the game for her: she had no interest in a strategic combat boardgame, and, with no ill-will on anyone's part, she left the table. The other two continued to have a blast.

In 3rd Edition, when I first started playing, we played completely without a map for about two years. Graph paper was brought out sparingly, when the DM needed to illustrate a scenario with some precision. The emphasis in those games was on the story-telling aspects, even in combat. In those days, we could bring in a "girly" girl and she'd still get hooked on the game.

I've found that in 4th Edition you simply cannot remove the battle-mat. The combat rules are so intrinsically boardgame-y and strategy oriented that you can't simply "talk" about it, you must hash it out with grids and counters. I fear the mass appeal D&D has had for the last two editions will wane, as the dedicated gamers take D&D back for themselves.

Not that I am sorry about the changes in 4th Edition... I am an ardent proponent of it and will make the switch no matter what. I fear, however, that I can no longer invite just anyone to the game room anymore.

What are you guys' experience? Am I off my rocker here?

 

[Timeboxer]

What are you guys' experience? Am I off my rocker here?

Just use the Adapter pattern. Keep the map behind the GM screen and describe using that. When someone narratively describes actions, you mechanically determine what they can and can't do on your private grid, and tell them what happens.

Oh, and I can't possibly imagine a girl being able to play 4E.

 

[davethegame]

If I understood correctly, 50% of the women you played with enjoyed it?

It's been my experience that it's not a male/female difference, it's a taste/style thing. I've run minis intensive games in the past, and it seemed like there were members of both sexes that either enjoyed or didn't enjoy that aspect of it, with no clear breakdown.

 

[Mort_Q]

What are you guys' experience? Am I off my rocker here?

The new combat rules are a lot more movement/location dependent, and thus does lend itself to using a battlemat or graphpaper for accuracy.

That said, if you aren't that interested in accuracy, you can wing it.

Personally, I enjoy the strategic element, and I'm not sure how to involve the players that are there for the roleplay only.

Perhaps they can simply have other players help them? The discussion of what to do next is OoC but can be assumed to be the product of strategic discussions or training the characters had during downtime, etc.

 

[biotech66]

White Wolf maybe?

Now, 4.0 (we all know 4.5 is coming, its just when) is still quite role playing intensive. I like the new skill challenge system. I think it makes social interactions easier for DM's to give EXP for and allows for Role playing intensive players to take center stage.

In the previous edition, I think it was more combat oriented then 4.0. Combat is still a big part, but the new challenge system at least makes talking to a noble lord easier then one roll, one failure, and the bard is worthless now. This also give skill based characters a chance to be a bigger part then before as those characters were important, but again one role and they single handedly may have disarmed the entire temple while the fighter gets all the glory.

For people who only want crazy role playing with almost no combat, I'd go white wolf. They tend to make games that almost much more emphasis on role playing with much less combat. Its my opinion however.

But, I do see some light at the end of the tunnel. For all those out there who think there is no role playing or the game is too simplified in 4.0, keep yelling! given enough time (5 years). WotC will take this into consideration and make 4.5 with half of the original 3.5 rules back in! Or even better, there will be DnD and Advanced DnD!

 

[Piratecat]

J
Oh, and I can't possibly imagine a girl being able to play 4E.

Me either. I have four women in my 4e group, though.

 

[Dragonbait]

I GMed for a number of females with different tastes. Almost all enjoyed the minis aspect of a game (finding an appropriate one and painting them) and had no complaints about minatures, movement and so on. Granted, the RP was what they really wanted and that can be provided no matter the system. I have a feeling that new person you tried to introduce would have been put off once any game went into combat. I've experienced that: heavy RPers who get bored quickly once you have to start rolling dice.

As for minis,mats, and the like: If you were able to play 3E without them that you chould be able to play 4E without them. I can't imagine playing 3E without know exactly how many feet enemies are away, if I can take a 5' step away or not, and if I can charge without being blocked, and so on. There is more movement per round in 4E, yes, but less concern about obstructions and I'm assuming non-mat-players have an excellent mental-grid after all those years of playing without them in 3E.

 

[Timeboxer]

Me either. I have four women in my 4e group, though.

Heavens forfend!

Satirical asides aside, though, for a good chunk of my life my D&D groups have been majority-female.

 

[The Little Raven]

Me either. I have four women in my 4e group, though.

I've got two, and we're talking about adding a third to replace one of the guys who is developing a bad attitude.

 

[Dragonbait]

For people who only want crazy role playing with almost no combat, I'd go white wolf. They tend to make games that almost much more emphasis on role playing with much less combat. Its my opinion however.

I would have thought that too until I heard people discussing the current WoD system: Move action, standard action? Opening a door stops any current action and moving through starts a new move action?

I tought they were talking about D&D at first. Apparently its more crunch-reliant, but with the d10 system stats and skills (roll stat+skill)