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4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook
- Thread starter Upper_Krust
- Start date
Further thoughts:
Assuming no translation error, Orcus has an ability that takes away roughly half of an opponent's hit points on a miss through necrotic damage!
Oh yeah, it appears the ability ignores any immunity to necrotic damage on a hit.
I know healing is more powerful in 4e but man that is brutal.
That sounds roughly like a transcendental ability.
Assuming no translation error, Orcus has an ability that takes away roughly half of an opponent's hit points on a miss through necrotic damage!
Oh yeah, it appears the ability ignores any immunity to necrotic damage on a hit.
I know healing is more powerful in 4e but man that is brutal.
That sounds roughly like a transcendental ability.
Upper_Krust
Hero
Howdy historian mate! 
In contrast here is a 30th-level Dwarven Fighter posted over in the 4E Discussion Forum...
Looking at the Dwarf, as soon as Orcus lays the smackdown with the Death Touch dropping the dawrf to 0hp, the dwarf immediately gains 106 hit points - the dwarf can do this twice per day!
Once that runs out the dwarf has another immediate action to regain 63 hit points. Plus half a dozen other abilities which seemingly use minor actions to regain about 20-30 more hit points.
Orcus basically has to drop the dwarf to 0 hit points four times before he'll get the confirmed kill as far as I can see. Thats before taking into account the party cleric, potions of life (full hp?) and healing surges.
Remember Orcus is meant to be a solo challenge for five 33rd-level PCs.
If the dwarf crits using a daily power he could end up dealing some insane amount of damage 4d10* + 80 + 9d12*...about 200 points is not out of the question.
re-rolling all 1's and rolling an additional die if you roll the die's maximum.
So to answer your point, I don't think Death Touch is transcendental, far from it.
I also think Orcus has the wrong hit points, he should have about 1865 not 1545.
historian said:
In contrast here is a 30th-level Dwarven Fighter posted over in the 4E Discussion Forum...
Looking at the Dwarf, as soon as Orcus lays the smackdown with the Death Touch dropping the dawrf to 0hp, the dwarf immediately gains 106 hit points - the dwarf can do this twice per day!
Once that runs out the dwarf has another immediate action to regain 63 hit points. Plus half a dozen other abilities which seemingly use minor actions to regain about 20-30 more hit points.
Orcus basically has to drop the dwarf to 0 hit points four times before he'll get the confirmed kill as far as I can see. Thats before taking into account the party cleric, potions of life (full hp?) and healing surges.
Remember Orcus is meant to be a solo challenge for five 33rd-level PCs.
If the dwarf crits using a daily power he could end up dealing some insane amount of damage 4d10* + 80 + 9d12*...about 200 points is not out of the question.
re-rolling all 1's and rolling an additional die if you roll the die's maximum.
So to answer your point, I don't think Death Touch is transcendental, far from it.
I also think Orcus has the wrong hit points, he should have about 1865 not 1545.
Fieari
Explorer
I got the books early as well now. (Thanks, those willing to break street date!)
Yeah, it pretty much says if you're hit, you're at 0hp, no immunity or resistance applies. If you're missed, you take necrotic damage equal to half your max hp... although the way it's worded here, it looks like necrotic immunity/resistance does apply to the miss.
I'm a little disappointed that they went the route of immunities and things that bypass immunities again. I mean, yeah, sure, it'll work until level 30, but what about later? Even assuming CHARACTERS never advance past level 30, we know that level 1 characters can take on, with EXTREME DIFFICIULTY, level 7 monsters, so why shouldn't we expect even more powerful monsters than Orcus in the future? Eventually, the whole system of having immunities, and immunity counters, just breaks down.
Anyway, with the Demigod epic destiny, you don't become an ACTUAL demigod until you've completed your destiny quest, which would presumably bring you to level 31. The same for all the destinies.
I'm slightly underwhelmed with the epic destinies as they show up, but that's simply because the powers they all offer tend to be variations on the theme of simply recovering abilities already spent. All of 'em. So basically, the destinies are simply about managing your vancian slots. The real power is in, well, the powers that come from your class alone, and perhaps some feats, equipment, etc.
The paragon paths all have cool abilities though. Pity the epic destinies are just bookkeeping. On the other hand, since I haven't playtested it yet, that bookkeeping might be REALLY powerful. But as it is now, it doesn't -feel- impressive much.
What this really means though, is that for immortal+ levels, there's either going to have to be more powers written for every class out there, or there needs to be complete new system. Since that would go against all the work done so far on playtesting the lower levels, I think the immortal+ levels should follow a similar pattern. That means having new core immortal classes that go for 30 or so levels, with overlays that go on top of that.
Now then, all the core gods have listed between 2 and 4 domains, with most having three. Those domains, however, rarely are anything but slight variations on a single theme. Bahamut, for instance, has Justice, Honor, and Nobility... all three of which could basically be seen as the same thing, then with his fourth, Protection, added on. Avandra has Change, Trade, and Travel... all of which could be the same thing, and then with Luck added on. Corellon has Arcane magic and The Arts, which could be the same thing, and then Spring and Beauty, which could be the same thing.
Basically, it seems everyone has two domains. Why not make the thing about entering level 31, that you simply multiclass two domains? Then add specialization with paragon paths that would specify the little variations. Might as well make it so you can take two of those at the same time as well.
Bane has just War and Conquest (how are those two different again?), so we could even make some sort of bonus for only single-classing a domain.
Instead of 20 level portfolios though, you might as well go with 30 level ones. Aren't Old Ones basically pure embodiments of their portfolios anyway? Then there'd be another 30 level progression from First One all the way to the Eternal++ level.
I'm also thinking that the portfolios (and whatever comes after... planar laws?) should work somehow to synergize with your mortal class. Have the later powers act as metapowers, so to speak, influencing your lower arsenal.
What do you think?
Yeah, it pretty much says if you're hit, you're at 0hp, no immunity or resistance applies. If you're missed, you take necrotic damage equal to half your max hp... although the way it's worded here, it looks like necrotic immunity/resistance does apply to the miss.
I'm a little disappointed that they went the route of immunities and things that bypass immunities again. I mean, yeah, sure, it'll work until level 30, but what about later? Even assuming CHARACTERS never advance past level 30, we know that level 1 characters can take on, with EXTREME DIFFICIULTY, level 7 monsters, so why shouldn't we expect even more powerful monsters than Orcus in the future? Eventually, the whole system of having immunities, and immunity counters, just breaks down.
Anyway, with the Demigod epic destiny, you don't become an ACTUAL demigod until you've completed your destiny quest, which would presumably bring you to level 31. The same for all the destinies.
I'm slightly underwhelmed with the epic destinies as they show up, but that's simply because the powers they all offer tend to be variations on the theme of simply recovering abilities already spent. All of 'em. So basically, the destinies are simply about managing your vancian slots. The real power is in, well, the powers that come from your class alone, and perhaps some feats, equipment, etc.
The paragon paths all have cool abilities though. Pity the epic destinies are just bookkeeping. On the other hand, since I haven't playtested it yet, that bookkeeping might be REALLY powerful. But as it is now, it doesn't -feel- impressive much.
What this really means though, is that for immortal+ levels, there's either going to have to be more powers written for every class out there, or there needs to be complete new system. Since that would go against all the work done so far on playtesting the lower levels, I think the immortal+ levels should follow a similar pattern. That means having new core immortal classes that go for 30 or so levels, with overlays that go on top of that.
Now then, all the core gods have listed between 2 and 4 domains, with most having three. Those domains, however, rarely are anything but slight variations on a single theme. Bahamut, for instance, has Justice, Honor, and Nobility... all three of which could basically be seen as the same thing, then with his fourth, Protection, added on. Avandra has Change, Trade, and Travel... all of which could be the same thing, and then with Luck added on. Corellon has Arcane magic and The Arts, which could be the same thing, and then Spring and Beauty, which could be the same thing.
Basically, it seems everyone has two domains. Why not make the thing about entering level 31, that you simply multiclass two domains? Then add specialization with paragon paths that would specify the little variations. Might as well make it so you can take two of those at the same time as well.
Bane has just War and Conquest (how are those two different again?), so we could even make some sort of bonus for only single-classing a domain.
Instead of 20 level portfolios though, you might as well go with 30 level ones. Aren't Old Ones basically pure embodiments of their portfolios anyway? Then there'd be another 30 level progression from First One all the way to the Eternal++ level.
I'm also thinking that the portfolios (and whatever comes after... planar laws?) should work somehow to synergize with your mortal class. Have the later powers act as metapowers, so to speak, influencing your lower arsenal.
What do you think?
Upper_Krust
Hero
Hey Fieari mate!
Oh for goodness sake...not you too!
Congrats!
As long as you keep that sort of thing to deities with the relevant portfolios I think it shouldn't be a problem.
Cool.
They seem (from what little I know) very utilitarian rather than OMGZ kewl.
Looking at the dwarf sample 30th-level Fighter, he seems virtually impossible to kill (within a party structure) for even someone like Orcus.
My current plans, and remember I haven't even seen the books yet so its not set in stone is for Class levels to stop at 30th and for Portfolio 'Levels' to begin.
eg. A 42nd-level Immortal might be a 30th-level Fighter with 5 levels of the Fire Portfolio and 7 Levels of the War Portfolio.
Remember that all those mentioned are full Immortals (levels 41-50) who would all have between 3-4 potential portfolios (Portfolios exist in 5 Level 'chunks').
At Level 31 you will only have 1 Level of a single portfolio.
Bane could be a 48th-level Immortal; a Level 30 Warlord with 18 Levels of the War Portfolio.
While a 30-level Immortal Progression, 30-level Eternal progression seems neat and tidy, I don't see any benefit to it. I think a 20-level Immortal progression followed by a 10-level Primordial progression is the way to go.
After that there'll be Eternals, but I am not sure if I'll support 61st-level+ PC play. Simply because there'll be no monsters left to fight, or at least, not enough to make it worthwhile.
Certainly there'll be some synergy with mortal classes, but I really think the higher you go the more distance you'll put between the character and the class powers.
I mean if we look at a Level 10 character and a Level 30 character, they don't have any of the same Encounter or Daily powers and they don't have any of the same Magic Items. So we can't assume that a Level 50 immortal will have any of the same powers/items that a Level 30 character has.
Fieari said:
Oh for goodness sake...not you too!
Congrats!
As long as you keep that sort of thing to deities with the relevant portfolios I think it shouldn't be a problem.
Cool.
They seem (from what little I know) very utilitarian rather than OMGZ kewl.
Looking at the dwarf sample 30th-level Fighter, he seems virtually impossible to kill (within a party structure) for even someone like Orcus.
My current plans, and remember I haven't even seen the books yet so its not set in stone is for Class levels to stop at 30th and for Portfolio 'Levels' to begin.
eg. A 42nd-level Immortal might be a 30th-level Fighter with 5 levels of the Fire Portfolio and 7 Levels of the War Portfolio.
Remember that all those mentioned are full Immortals (levels 41-50) who would all have between 3-4 potential portfolios (Portfolios exist in 5 Level 'chunks').
At Level 31 you will only have 1 Level of a single portfolio.
Bane could be a 48th-level Immortal; a Level 30 Warlord with 18 Levels of the War Portfolio.
While a 30-level Immortal Progression, 30-level Eternal progression seems neat and tidy, I don't see any benefit to it. I think a 20-level Immortal progression followed by a 10-level Primordial progression is the way to go.
After that there'll be Eternals, but I am not sure if I'll support 61st-level+ PC play. Simply because there'll be no monsters left to fight, or at least, not enough to make it worthwhile.
Certainly there'll be some synergy with mortal classes, but I really think the higher you go the more distance you'll put between the character and the class powers.
I mean if we look at a Level 10 character and a Level 30 character, they don't have any of the same Encounter or Daily powers and they don't have any of the same Magic Items. So we can't assume that a Level 50 immortal will have any of the same powers/items that a Level 30 character has.
Fieari
Explorer
Well, again... why bother 20/10, when you can go 30//10 (or even, say, 30//10/10)? The portfolios for 3.5 you have go into primordial territory, after all.
On a completely separate note, the monster manual section for dragons contains the histories of Io, Bahamut, and Tiamat. Basically, Io decided he was too good for the other gods and decided to fight the primordials by himself, and ended up getting cut in half, which created Bahamut and Tiamat, two separate warring sides of his personality (although both inherited the "screw all the other gods, I'm on my own" part).
Any plans for powers that would do this sort of thing?
Also, dragons now only get stats for young, adult, elder, and ancient age categories, with hints that another book might state how to handle hatchlings. Size categories only go up to gargantuan also... nothing in the MM is Colossal, although the dragon section says that Ancient dragons keep growing forever and can reach any size.
It makes sense to stop at Ancient I suppose, given that the ancient dragons here are NASTY, but I think there's plenty of room for the Great Wyrn age, along with your extended size categories again.
One last thing about Orcus. He's a Solo Brute, but his statblock clearly indicates he never appears alone, and they suggest you'll be fighting him along with 2 atropals and 8 lich vestiges (a dead lich brought back again, more powerful in magic and attack, but a minion, so they go down in one hit)
On a completely separate note, the monster manual section for dragons contains the histories of Io, Bahamut, and Tiamat. Basically, Io decided he was too good for the other gods and decided to fight the primordials by himself, and ended up getting cut in half, which created Bahamut and Tiamat, two separate warring sides of his personality (although both inherited the "screw all the other gods, I'm on my own" part).
Any plans for powers that would do this sort of thing?
Also, dragons now only get stats for young, adult, elder, and ancient age categories, with hints that another book might state how to handle hatchlings. Size categories only go up to gargantuan also... nothing in the MM is Colossal, although the dragon section says that Ancient dragons keep growing forever and can reach any size.
It makes sense to stop at Ancient I suppose, given that the ancient dragons here are NASTY, but I think there's plenty of room for the Great Wyrn age, along with your extended size categories again.
One last thing about Orcus. He's a Solo Brute, but his statblock clearly indicates he never appears alone, and they suggest you'll be fighting him along with 2 atropals and 8 lich vestiges (a dead lich brought back again, more powerful in magic and attack, but a minion, so they go down in one hit)
Upper_Krust
Hero
Hello there!
The 20/10 keeps interaction to an absolute maximum, it also allows for three really strong tiers of play with no compromising on quality and lack of options.
This ain't 3.5.
Can some of you guys with the books answer a few minor questions?
1) Does the Pit Fiend really have 351 hp?
2) What is the Level spread of the Dragon Age Categories? (The Young Red is Level 7 and the Ancient Red is Level 30, what level are the Adult and Elder versions - there doesn't seem to be an even breakdown)
3) How many Abominations in the Monster Manual? (We know about the Tarrasque, Atropal and Phane)
4) What sort of damage do the Balor and the Tarrasque deal and what are their Strength Scores?
Thanks in advance.
Fieari said:
The 20/10 keeps interaction to an absolute maximum, it also allows for three really strong tiers of play with no compromising on quality and lack of options.
Fieari said:
This ain't 3.5.
Can some of you guys with the books answer a few minor questions?
1) Does the Pit Fiend really have 351 hp?
2) What is the Level spread of the Dragon Age Categories? (The Young Red is Level 7 and the Ancient Red is Level 30, what level are the Adult and Elder versions - there doesn't seem to be an even breakdown)
3) How many Abominations in the Monster Manual? (We know about the Tarrasque, Atropal and Phane)
4) What sort of damage do the Balor and the Tarrasque deal and what are their Strength Scores?
Thanks in advance.
Upper_Krust
Hero
Fieari said:
Answered in previous post.
Some sort of Schismatic Weapon could divide an immortal into two 'Avatars' I suppose. I like the idea of a 6-headed dragon getting sliced into a single-headed dragon and a five-headed dragon.
I'll look into it.
I'd probably just leave them at Ancient, Dragon Gods (aka Epic Dragons) will be Solo monsters in the mid-high 30's, Space Dragons can be used in the 40's and so on and so forth.
Starts to make much more sense now - I thought he was a bit weak. I guess this 'summoning' is akin to the Pit Fiend being accompanied by War Devils and Legion Devil Legionaires?
Also can you confirm is that 2 atropals and 8 lich vestiges or two from the following choices?
1 Atropal (Level 28 Elite Brute)
4 Lich Vestiges (Level 27 Minion?)
Also these extra creatures could account for his lowered hit points - just as the Pit Fiend should have 486 by the rules but may have 351 due to its summoned monsters.
I wonder do the books explain how this lowering of hit points works for summoned creatures or will I have to work it out?
Ltheb Silverfrond
Explorer
I can confirm the pitfiend has 486 Hp... Those silly previews are just to mess with us!
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