4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hi GQuail mate!

Without rehashing old ground: yes, I understand that it's not in your interests to be late, and I don't think you're doing it out of spite. I also appreciate that various other things kept getting in the way, and that 4E might well be the next of those. It's easy to, as the Americans say, "armchair quarterback", so I don't think there's much I can add at this stage that I, Pssthpok and others haven't already said.

Well I can assure you 4th Edition will not delay anything for at least 9 months.

Theres no question that Ascension, Gods & Monsters, Grimoire and Bestiary Volume 2 will be 3.5 releases, probably Chronicle and Bestiary 3 as well unless something dramatic happens.

Still, the biggest casualty of all this is enthusiasm for your product: after the Bestiary came out I was super-pumped about your products and was checking your website and this board all thet ime, whereas only in the past few days have I started doing that regularly again: in fact, I've only this week printed out the current edition of Ascension. I can't really get that pumped about your next release when I don't know when it'll be, what'll be in it, if it'll be for the rules I'll be using at that point and whether I will be able to use it as is or if I'll need any more of your books to get the "full experience" - and to be blunt, I would be surprised if I'm the only person who feels that way.

I know what you mean. I've basically made a mess of things and I can see how customer confidence will be at a low ebb. Its up to me to win that back.

Yeah, a lot of this is ultimately pointless talk at the moment, since we have no idea what's coming: still, I would repeat that I'd rather see an Immortals Handbook product released, full stop, than worry about what rules edition it was for.

I'm not worried, just discussing immediately relevant news and how that may affect us all.

And "the only difference would be the actual stat block itself" doesn't fill me with confidence considering the size of the stat blocks... ;-)

Indeed.

I agree with Pssthpok: this is a very interesting idea. Doing it as a class rather than a template allows for more traditional, level-based D&D growth: possibly tying into Worship points in the same way the old Immortals Box set essentially eschewed XP for a whole new point system.

It could be a simpler way to go forward.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Xzoltar dude!

I will fully embrace the 4th edition as I switch from 2nd to 3rd. Of course even now I sometime miss 2nd edition and even part of 1st edition, but it get improved and there'S more good stuff in new editions than what they forget was nice in last editions.

Like people did when 3rd came out, everyone said they wont buy any 4th edition book, but most have made the switch (even if I know some still play 2nd, my friend decide to buy 300$ worth of D&D3 books and then yesterday I told him of the 4th edition, he start to cry...)

I think most people will adopt the newer system. But that certainly doesn't mean (for me) that I will alienate 3.5 customer base.

As for the Immortal Handbook, you have the choice of staying with 3rd edition, but overall most will change to 4th and you will then have less and less people interested in your stuff.

Thats the eventual likelihood.

You can't make both edition stuf as 4th edition will be a lot different than 3rd and not compatible together.

Well, certain things lend themselves to being easy ports from 3.5 to 4. Things like monsters and adventures. What doesn't so easily lend itself are things like new rules that integrate with the current rules. So something like a Bestiary would be relatively easy* to convert, while something like Ascension would be a lot trickier.

*...and this is me remember.

At the time it take you to finish a product you better choose now if you stay 3rd or 4th, Just the 2 books you have made so far, will require you to do lot of change to became 4th. But if you move to 4th you need to update those, so it will delay other products even more. So it may be a good thing to stay with 3rd for you. You have near a year until next edition and probably one more until people really start to use it and forget about 3rd. So in 2 year you should have the time to make another book and start thinking about updating to 4th.

Well its certainly not going to affect progress over the next year or thereabouts (Ascension, Gods & Monsters, Grimoire and Bestiary 2). After that I would just be guessing.

Its bad because as UK is alone in his projects, things are really really slow. He really need to have contributors as Dicefreaks do. They have members on their forum like here and they also have members that are allowed to work on their "Official Rules" and im sure everyone agree with that Dicefreaks is probably the best company out there. They make flavor and crunch work together and balance everything with the rest of their works. Even with that many contributors, its a long for a Dicefreaks project to be finished, but the quality is here, like with what UK done with Ascension, I really do like both of his books. And if we want to still have that quality UK provide us with, he need to still make only 1 or 2 book per year if working alone, or maybe 4 a year with contributors.

Its something of a Catch 22 for me.

If I hire someone I end up making less money, if I don't hire someone the turnover is slower.

I'm also still not at the stage where I can afford to pay people up front, so thats another problem.

If I could get a good artist I would be happy to relinquish art duties (since thats where I am least confident), but good art costs money these days.

So UK you decide what you do as its your company, but even if you stay with 3rd edition. I will still come here and make my own conversion of stuff I like. Do what please you more, if you really like the 4th edition when you will see it, then switch, dont care about others, if you like it, they will probably like it too as you probably like the stuff you make and we do like your stuff.

Even if I do embrace 4E I won't abandon 3.5 until things have run their course. So I would still plan on releasing all the Immortals Handbook products for 3.5 (though as for the Immortals Index stuff we will have to wait and see).

 

[Zoatebix]

Just keep on doing what you're doing and don't sweat 4th edition until your fans start coming up with conversion ideas for you ;-)
Best of luck getting it all done!
-George

 

[paradox42]

Damn my not having Internet access at Gen Con! I had to wait until now to weigh in on all this.

My reading of the 4E info suggests that "templates" as they exist in 3/3.5 are going the way of the dodo- monsters are going to be more similar to "classes" in that they'll get abilities with "level-ups" and such, and monster customizability is being "built in" to the system somehow. I suggest that this means they're doing something like Fantasy Flight's old Monsters Handbook did; literally deconstructing monsters by the abilities they had and showing how adding new ones changes the beast. In such a system, templates will be unnecessary- and let's face it, they do make the DM's job harder even when they're easy to add to a critter. After all, you need to go to the trouble of adding the template in the first place, right?

Further support for this notion comes in the blurb they gave about how it will be "obvious" how to use a Goblin as a PC with just the Monster Manual and the PHB. If monsters have levels and classes right from the get-go, that would indeed make it pretty obvious, yes?

This, in turn, suggests that the idea to go with "divinity classes" is a perfect mesh with 4E; I like the suggestion about 30-level "Ascension" classes followed by "Divinity" and then "Dimensional" and others. Assuming 4E allows multiclassing after 1st level, like 3E does (by getting levels in another class, that is), this is the perfect way to go. The info released so far suggests that classes are getting choices for abilities to take at various levels, which would mean that you can have a "tank" Fighter still be different from an "archer" Fighter.

I myself saw a demo of D&D at Gen Con which in hindsight must have been using mostly if not all 4th Edition rules, which provided further evidence of this. I saw no characters with listed multiclass levels, but the Fighter (for instance) had maneuvers straight out of the Book of Nine Swords- and the apparent healer character was a Favored Soul. The character sheets were greatly simplified and listed everything the character could do- with boxes to mark off for (for example) the maneuvers used in the Fighter's case, and the spell slots spent in the Favored Soul's.

And FWIW, I would strongly urge a scheme for sharing your workload- up-front payment or wages/salaries are not the only way to structure a work agreement. I suspect many posters here would offer their services for something like, say, a small percentage of the revenue from sales? That's just one idea, but it shows there are possibilities here. Do we know how Dicefreaks does it? That's something worth exploring IMO.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks for the encouragement Zoatebix dude.

Howdy paradox!

Damn my not having Internet access at Gen Con! I had to wait until now to weigh in on all this.

Yeah but, YOU WENT TO GENCON, consider the rest of us jealous.

My reading of the 4E info suggests that "templates" as they exist in 3/3.5 are going the way of the dodo- monsters are going to be more similar to "classes" in that they'll get abilities with "level-ups" and such, and monster customizability is being "built in" to the system somehow.

Thats weird...I am not sure how thats going to work. I mean if I want a Ghost Tyrannosaurus what the heck will I do if there is no Ghost Template?

I suggest that this means they're doing something like Fantasy Flight's old Monsters Handbook did; literally deconstructing monsters by the abilities they had and showing how adding new ones changes the beast. In such a system, templates will be unnecessary- and let's face it, they do make the DM's job harder even when they're easy to add to a critter. After all, you need to go to the trouble of adding the template in the first place, right?

I thought Templates were pretty straightforward.

Further support for this notion comes in the blurb they gave about how it will be "obvious" how to use a Goblin as a PC with just the Monster Manual and the PHB. If monsters have levels and classes right from the get-go, that would indeed make it pretty obvious, yes?

What has that got to do with Templates though?

I mean you can already see how to play a PC Orc right out of the 3.5 Monster Manuals.

This, in turn, suggests that the idea to go with "divinity classes" is a perfect mesh with 4E; I like the suggestion about 30-level "Ascension" classes followed by "Divinity" and then "Dimensional" and others.

Well, it would probably be more like:

Standard Class Levels 1-30
Portfolio Levels 31-60 (or maybe 31-90?)
Dimensional Levels 61-90 (or maybe 91-210?)
Reality Levels 91-120 (or maybe 211-450?)

Assuming 4E allows multiclassing after 1st level, like 3E does (by getting levels in another class, that is), this is the perfect way to go. The info released so far suggests that classes are getting choices for abilities to take at various levels, which would mean that you can have a "tank" Fighter still be different from an "archer" Fighter.

Sounds like Iron Heroes, which is a good thing in my eyes.

I myself saw a demo of D&D at Gen Con which in hindsight must have been using mostly if not all 4th Edition rules, which provided further evidence of this. I saw no characters with listed multiclass levels, but the Fighter (for instance) had maneuvers straight out of the Book of Nine Swords- and the apparent healer character was a Favored Soul. The character sheets were greatly simplified and listed everything the character could do- with boxes to mark off for (for example) the maneuvers used in the Fighter's case, and the spell slots spent in the Favored Soul's.

Cool...although you should have been pressing these guys for info on 4E epic stuff.

And FWIW, I would strongly urge a scheme for sharing your workload- up-front payment or wages/salaries are not the only way to structure a work agreement. I suspect many posters here would offer their services for something like, say, a small percentage of the revenue from sales? That's just one idea, but it shows there are possibilities here. Do we know how Dicefreaks does it? That's something worth exploring IMO.

Well editing aside, its more a case of needing an artist/artists than another writer/writers. Are there any artists at dicefreaks? Personally I don't see any hanging about (though maybe I am just looking in the wrong places)? I'd be happy to give up a slice of the profits depending on the artists experience, but that still means they would have to finish all the art before they saw any of the money, and I can't imagine there are too many willing to work like that.

 

[GQuail]

If I hire someone I end up making less money, if I don't hire someone the turnover is slower.

I'm also still not at the stage where I can afford to pay people up front, so thats another problem.

If I could get a good artist I would be happy to relinquish art duties (since thats where I am least confident), but good art costs money these days.

If you hire someone, you'll make less money, yes... but you'll make that money quicker. And, to be honest, so much is already discussed and changed because of this forum that all you'd really be doing is making that sort of relationship more formal. (Even if you sometimes stare at us like we're insane for suggesting what we do! )

I don't know anything about the RPG industry, but greatly suspect that up-front payment not being available would not be an issue: like I said, lots of people already toy with this project here. Even if it's something as dull as you posting copies of your hand-written notes to people and asking them to type some stuff out for you, I'm sure there's people on this board who would happy to help out in return for seeing this project move a little closer to completion - and while they may want some monetary compensation, I doubt it would be a truly epic sum. Or even Transcendental. :-(

I agree art is the most complex one, since art is a bit harder to sub out to a helpful fan: you're probably looking for a professional, and they'd be looking for more than a nominal sum. (Whereas you may be able to convince some people to transcribe stuff for a credit or a free copy, you ain't gonna get art done otherwise) But as we've discussed before, as long as you're trying to juggle every task in the book alone, it only takes one thing to mess up (like the whole Bestiary print cover stuff) and it makes all work grind to a halt. I don't know if anyone on this board could advice, say, artists who may be willing to work more to show off their skills than for real money - or if anyone here themselves is willing to contribute a picture or two.

Still, I'll agree that since this is hardly a big-money project, it's always going to be awkward finding ways to compensate people enough for them to help out. The RPG industry is hardly cash rich at the highest level; the indie PDF market, this is even more exaggerated. I knwo this is a labour of love for you - I guess you'd really need someone similarly mad for Neutronium Golems to have any chance of getting a buddy.

 

[GQuail]

Thats weird...I am not sure how thats going to work. I mean if I want a Ghost Tyrannosaurus what the heck will I do if there is no Ghost Template?

At a guess: you could have a monster class called "Ghost", which gives the same powers. It's basically the same thing as a template, but comes with certain advantages. (like being able to better handle lesser and greater versions: no need for seperate tempaltes for things like Vampires of differing age categories) Comparable to monster classes perhaps?

I thought Templates were pretty straightforward.

I find them useful, but I think the main advantage of "monsters as classes" is going to be for CR calculation when upping HD. As it stands, HD are a mixed bag: it's a bit wonky when you try to up a Wight, a Kobold and a Succubus by HD alone. But if they come with monster classes which work to the same scale as player classes.... well, OK, classes still aren't equal, but none are as unequal as Dragon HD vs Fey HD!

What has that got to do with Templates though?

I mean you can already see how to play a PC Orc right out of the 3.5 Monster Manuals.

Again, I think the "class" aspect will just break it down easier for things like LA. Orcs and Goblins I agree are simple: but if they can make playing thigns like Half-Dragons, Satyrs or Ogres simpler, I'd be all for it.

Cool...although you should have been pressing these guys for info on 4E epic stuff.

Considering how far it was into 3.X until we got true Epic support, and that we know basically next to nothing about even 1st level 4th Ed play, I don't think they'd have said anything useful.

Well editing aside, its more a case of needing an artist/artists than another writer/writers. Are there any artists at dicefreaks? Personally I don't see any hanging about (though maybe I am just looking in the wrong places)? I'd be happy to give up a slice of the profits depending on the artists experience, but that still means they would have to finish all the art before they saw any of the money, and I can't imagine there are too many willing to work like that.

"Payment at the end" may not be a total cripple, but I agree it's a bit of a pest. As for Dicefreaks, I don't go there often, but it does look like more a bunch of crunch-fiends than arty types.

 

[paradox42]

At a guess: you could have a monster class called "Ghost", which gives the same powers. It's basically the same thing as a template, but comes with certain advantages. (like being able to better handle lesser and greater versions: no need for seperate tempaltes for things like Vampires of differing age categories) Comparable to monster classes perhaps?

Beat me to it. If they have indeed made monsters into "classes" of their own, this would be the most obvious way for how "templates" would work in the new edition. After all, if PCs can multiclass, why shouldn't monsters be able to as well?

I find them useful, but I think the main advantage of "monsters as classes" is going to be for CR calculation when upping HD. As it stands, HD are a mixed bag: it's a bit wonky when you try to up a Wight, a Kobold and a Succubus by HD alone. But if they come with monster classes which work to the same scale as player classes.... well, OK, classes still aren't equal, but none are as unequal as Dragon HD vs Fey HD!

Readings so far suggest that a monster's "role" in an encounter will be somehow as important as, if not more important than, its CR. And apparently encounters are going to grant XP in a greatly simplified manner, such that charts and the old XP-calculation system go bye-bye. A direct quote says that an 8th-level encounter will be granting 8000 XP, IIRC.

Again, I think the "class" aspect will just break it down easier for things like LA. Orcs and Goblins I agree are simple: but if they can make playing thigns like Half-Dragons, Satyrs or Ogres simpler, I'd be all for it.

Definitely their prime motivation for going this way, I'd say. Assuming we're correct in how they're doing it, of course.

And as for asking them for details, I didn't go to any of the announcements or seminars myself, I just heard about 4E at a dinner on Thursday (only to find out Sunday night when I got back that at that exact time I was missing the first real 4E preview seminar), and saw the D&D demo game in the WotC booth once I got way the Hells over into that corner of the exhibit hall on Saturday. Of course, I saw the new beholder pic- they had them on t-shirts saying "4dventure begins May 2008"- and the "4 replaces A" advertisements were all over the con. Our room-key cards at the hotel even had "4dventure" on them, which was mysterious on Wednesday but became obvious on Thursday. Anyway, what I'm getting at here is that asking details is not really a thing I was in good position to do, even though I was at the same Con where they announced it. Gen Con is a truly enormous undertaking, and it's impossible for one person to become involved in more than a small fraction of what goes on there. It's an entire city of gaming that pops up in the middle of Indianapolis for 4 days each year and then vanishes again.

The blurb recently posted by a WotC employee about Wizards casting "25th level spells" is telling though. Given that Star Wars Saga Edition is said to have several parts of 4th Edition D&D in it, and that they've admitted to "playtesting" certain rules from 4E in recent books released ostensibly for 3.5, I'd say that most likely means that they're putting a system in place for spells that mirrors the one they introduced for items with the Magic Item Compendium. For those who haven't read that book, it does away with the old random treasure tables, and even downplays the item's precise gold-piece value- items now come with "levels" of their own, which are supposed to be the earliest level at which the item can be considered "standard equipment" for a character. Thus, if they're doing the same for spells, it means that a 25th-level spell is just one that a character has to be 25th level to cast. This seems to dovetail rather neatly with what little you've said so far about the system in Grimoire, so that's good news for you.

They've also said that they're trying to "extend the sweet spot" and make 30th level as interesting and meaningful as 1st or 10th, which is certainly a laudable goal. I don't see how they can do it, but perhaps when I get the new PHB it will become more obvious. Apparently they're designing the game towards three "tiers" of play, 1st-10th as Heroic, 11th-20th as Paragon, and 21st-30th as Epic. So Epic is being built in to the system from the get-go, in some fashion; the only question is whether there will ever be official support for "super-Epic" of 31st and beyond. Your system, obviously, falls squarely into the "super-Epic" niche. Possibly, if you're able to strike while the iron is hot so to speak, your system could be the first one on the market to address that regime of play. That's admittedly going to be difficult if you can't get a publisher SRD from Mongoose though. Anyway, I'd say that the impending release of 4th Edition looks more like an opportunity for the IH than a detriment to it, since much of your design philosophy appears to be echoed in what WotC has said about 4E so far.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

If you hire someone, you'll make less money, yes... but you'll make that money quicker.

Exactly. But that still means I need to find an artist or two.

And, to be honest, so much is already discussed and changed because of this forum that all you'd really be doing is making that sort of relationship more formal. (Even if you sometimes stare at us like we're insane for suggesting what we do! )

Well certainly a lot of minor changes have been introduced thanks to feedback, for which I am eternally grateful.

I don't know anything about the RPG industry, but greatly suspect that up-front payment not being available would not be an issue: like I said, lots of people already toy with this project here. Even if it's something as dull as you posting copies of your hand-written notes to people and asking them to type some stuff out for you, I'm sure there's people on this board who would happy to help out in return for seeing this project move a little closer to completion - and while they may want some monetary compensation, I doubt it would be a truly epic sum. Or even Transcendental. :-(

I think (with regards the writing itself) editing and playtesting would be a better benefit than typing out my notes for me. Sometimes when you are hip deep in the work its hard to 'see the wood for the trees'.

If someone else is doing the writing then they should probably release their own book.

I agree art is the most complex one, since art is a bit harder to sub out to a helpful fan: you're probably looking for a professional, and they'd be looking for more than a nominal sum. (Whereas you may be able to convince some people to transcribe stuff for a credit or a free copy, you ain't gonna get art done otherwise) But as we've discussed before, as long as you're trying to juggle every task in the book alone, it only takes one thing to mess up (like the whole Bestiary print cover stuff) and it makes all work grind to a halt. I don't know if anyone on this board could advice, say, artists who may be willing to work more to show off their skills than for real money - or if anyone here themselves is willing to contribute a picture or two.

Maybe I can hunt down an artist (or two) in the art forums here at ENWorld.

Still, I'll agree that since this is hardly a big-money project, it's always going to be awkward finding ways to compensate people enough for them to help out. The RPG industry is hardly cash rich at the highest level; the indie PDF market, this is even more exaggerated. I knwo this is a labour of love for you - I guess you'd really need someone similarly mad for Neutronium Golems to have any chance of getting a buddy.

Well exactly. Financially I won't be able to pay someone up front, or even after they do the art, only after I have recouped the profits. If I could release one of these books every three-four months or thereabouts I would be able to make a decent living from it. However, thats impossible unless I can get someone else to do the art.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

At a guess: you could have a monster class called "Ghost", which gives the same powers. It's basically the same thing as a template, but comes with certain advantages. (like being able to better handle lesser and greater versions: no need for seperate tempaltes for things like Vampires of differing age categories) Comparable to monster classes perhaps?

I can see how a Ghost 'Class' or Vampire 'Class' would be neat, but what about a Dire Animal Template, or a Behemoth Template, do they need to be classes as well?

I find them useful, but I think the main advantage of "monsters as classes" is going to be for CR calculation when upping HD.

Indeed. Anything that simplifies that for people is a good thing.

As it stands, HD are a mixed bag: it's a bit wonky when you try to up a Wight, a Kobold and a Succubus by HD alone. But if they come with monster classes which work to the same scale as player classes.... well, OK, classes still aren't equal, but none are as unequal as Dragon HD vs Fey HD!

But does that mean Dragons (for instance) won't age, but instead gain class levels. I mean unless they are going to explicitly stat out 30 levels for each monster I don't see how thats going to work. Although personally I don't really like Monster Advancement at all, I'd prefer it was done a different way, dire template and so forth.

Again, I think the "class" aspect will just break it down easier for things like LA. Orcs and Goblins I agree are simple: but if they can make playing thigns like Half-Dragons, Satyrs or Ogres simpler, I'd be all for it.

The simple way would be to tie Hit Dice into CR.

Considering how far it was into 3.X until we got true Epic support, and that we know basically next to nothing about even 1st level 4th Ed play, I don't think they'd have said anything useful.

Epic Material came around about 18 months or so after D&D 3E.

"Payment at the end" may not be a total cripple, but I agree it's a bit of a pest. As for Dicefreaks, I don't go there often, but it does look like more a bunch of crunch-fiends than arty types.

Yes I don't remember seeing anyone there post any art and I apologise if I am doing anyone an injustice, I simply haven't seen any art over there.