4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

Howdy Axolotl matey! :D
Hello Upper_Krust:)!
Yes, these will be called feats and listed by Tier.
Ah. That seems obvous :blush:.
Not sure exactly what you mean?
I mean are gods just standard solo monsters of their level?

I recently got elder evils (what do you think of it?) and remembered one of the designers describing them as "antigods" which I think is an interesting idea. I remember somebody on the wizards forums who had a whole campaign based around the idea. It lead me to wondor how viable the idea of godlike beings that aren't gods is in 4E. Basically if any of the alternitive routes are still open?
 

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Axolotl said:
Hello Upper_Krust:)!

Hey Axolotl mate! :)

Axolotl said:
I mean are gods just standard solo monsters of their level?

For the most part, yes.

I think thats the best way to portray them.

Axolotl said:
I recently got elder evils (what do you think of it?) and remembered one of the designers describing them as "antigods" which I think is an interesting idea. I remember somebody on the wizards forums who had a whole campaign based around the idea. It lead me to wondor how viable the idea of godlike beings that aren't gods is in 4E. Basically if any of the alternitive routes are still open?

I see no problem with other beings gaining quintessence without worship (or via other means) certainly.
 

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Upper_Krust!

Hiya mate - well lets just answer this here. ;)

Yesterday, after finishing up some final work on my current game, I spent some thought on 4E Immortal's Math. Plugging the DMG guidelines, and the numbers from your sites' table, I noticed a slight math 'hiccup'. Monster Defenses scales ~ faster then projected PC bonuses to hit. It was a small error, but it means at the upper tiers of play that players are going to need a few more 'pluses' to hit. (On the order of about +1/5-10 levels)

I think (looking over your math) its about +1/4 per level to maintain absolute parity...assuming that was our goal. That also doesn't take the headstart of a probable +4 (18 ability score) at 1st-level into account. So an overarching +1/4 is too high.

I wonder if we tinker with ability scores between 31-60 (doubling them) do we get superior results.

60 solo will have defenses of about 76-80.

60 PC would have 30 (level) + 12 (item) + 13 (primary ability score) + 2 (average proficiency) = 57 +d20

30 solo would have defenses of about 46-50.

30 PC would have 15 (level) + 6 (item) + 8 (ability score) +2 (average proficiency) = 31 +d20

Going by the Demigod Epic Destiny, they gain +2 to two ability scores.

If we assume levels from 31-60 double PC ability score bonuses (instead of +1 to two scores they get +2 to two and instead of +1 to all scores they gain +2) then we end up with:

60 solo will have defenses of about 76-80.

60 PC would have 30 (level) + 12 (item) + 17 (primary ability score) + 2 (average proficiency) = 61 +d20

Not sure about whether thet would need continued for levels 61-90 or increased to +3, keeping it at +2 seems best.

90 solo will have defenses of about 106-110.

90 PC would have 45 (level) + 18 (item) + 26 (primary ability score) + 2 (average proficiency) = 91 +d20

100 solo defenses of 116-120

100 PC would have 50 (level) + 20 (item) + 29 (primary ability score) + 2 average proficiency = 101 +d20

So the simplest solution would be to double the ability score rate from 31st level onward. Of course that may have some unseen ramifications that will need to be double checked.

My train of though started, absurdly (as usual) at level 100. A level 100 solo, by DMG guidelines, is really easy to work out, but his Defenses (AC 119; Fortitude 112, Reflex 115, Will 117) are about ~25 points higher then average

Indeed.

PC projected to-hit modifiers.
Projected PC Hit mods:
Stat: Say base 16, +2 from race. (18 total)
- +2 per 10 levels (+20; 38 total)
- +1 to all attributes at each tier (assuming each tier is every 10 levels) (+10, 48 total)
So a maximum attribute, barring class mods (few of these I assume), is 48 - 50. Modifier +19-20.
Magic weapon is +1/5 levels, or +20 at 100th.
+39-40
+1/2 Level
+89-90
Proficiency is another +2-3 usually, plus the odd feat or two, you still end up being over 21 points (30 worst case, 27 points best case) short.

The doubling of ability score advancement from 31 onwards seems the way to go.

Though there may be some limited use/temporary absolutes within the portfolios or immortal feats and so forth.

Even if you plan to end immortal's at 75th level, the problem will crop up there too. (22-20 points likely missing at 75th)

Well at the moment I am concentrating upon Levels 21-60. However, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of higher levels at some stage.

Simple solution is to work in some +'s.

Well, what we haven't factored is the measure of powers at that level.

For instance a power that grants +4 to hit and deals 6[W] damage at Level 25 might grant +32 to hit and 48[W] damage at level 99.

Likewise a power that lowers an opponents AC by -2 at Level 25 might lower it by -16 at Level 99.

As a Side note, Designing a Timelord is easy and fun in 4E, even without having to make up any new rules or conditions.

Cool.

I'd also assume its much faster too. ;)
 

...

Well, what we haven't factored is the measure of powers at that level.

For instance a power that grants +4 to hit and deals 6[W] damage at Level 25 might grant +32 to hit and 48[W] damage at level 99.

Likewise a power that lowers an opponents AC by -2 at Level 25 might lower it by -16 at Level 99.
...

This is indeed an important factor; and one that will be the most difficult to approach.

On the one hand, you could have powers scale in damage, but if you make them scale in other things, (like the mentioned AC penalty) the game could break down like 3E breaks down to straight Sucess/fail.
Example: Lvl 99 with that -16 to AC power (hypothetically) - If you land this power, that opponent will die. The fight will become grossly easier with powers that destroy the 4E power scaling (5X so against a solo enemy), Unless the DM just ups the foe's AC by a similar ammount, which means landing said power will now be impossible, and the fight will be unwinnable.

The factors of powers that I think should scale:
* Damage - Needs to, and linearly, since no exponential HP explosions. Also, base weapon damage should not scale, but powers that use weapons should deal more X[W].
* Movement - Once deities are involved, scales need to increase. Especially at the cosmic level. It would be awesome to see a (cosmic) ranger shift behind a planet and use it as cover.
* Area - Needs to scale if movement scales. (Cosmic) wizards need to be able to hurl sun-sized blasts to catch those pesky cosmic rangers.
* Range - Same reason as move/area.
* Ongoing damage - easy to scale, ~5 damage per 10 levels.
* Resistance Piercing - Should not scale terribly fast, but should allow high level characters to of-handily defeat far lesser opposition.
* Depletion of Healing surges - This is really for monsters, but some monster (The Soldier-Wight, as an example) can just deplete healing surges directly on a hit. This should scale but very, very slowly because Healing Surges are linked to Con Mod, which could be a scaling attribute. A Charater with 50 Healing surges is not going to be inconvienced by losing 1 healing surge, and probably the other characters will have around 20 by then, so draining 2 at once might be in order by then.

Factors of powers that do not need to scale and I think interfere with a linear power progression:
* Powers granting increasing penalties/bonuses - Breaks a linear scale. A bonus to hit of +2 - +5 is enough to turn an average hit rate into a very high hit rate. A bonus to hit of +10 - +20 means you cannot miss except on a 1, or that the foe you are fighting could not have been hit without the powers. (or a clunky middle ground in-between) Some powers already scale like this (Armor-splinter - Ranger 13?; penalty equal to Wisdom Mod to foes AC) and need dealing with.
* Status conditions - Adding new conditions is fine, but adding more conditions to each power with each new tier of power is not needed. Conditions are far stronger then damage. I ran a ranger the other day at a friends game that was completely neutered by Immobilize, Daze, and ongoing damage hitting him every other round. A single attack that deals more than 2 conditions is probably too much.
* More powers: ~3 At wills, 4-7 Encounter, 4-7 Daily, and about 10 utiliy (of mixed use rates) are probably enough powers for every one. At level 100, we don't need 10/18/18/37 powers for each character. 18 encounter powers? You could never use them all! (If you can, your fights probably last about 8 hours each!)
* Number of attack rolls - After a certain point, this leads to absurdity. 2-6 attacks is more than enough for one power.

Now, the chief problems I can see with infinite (or extreme) extrapolation of the current rules are powers that violate the views I note above. Example: Armor Spliter - A penalty greater than 11 means you can't really miss. Not quite possible before level 30, but other powers can combine to do it. If you keep scaling penalties/bonuses, then you need to give all monsters more defense, which means all the powers need to grant bonuses and penalties to even initially hit, which means you probably should just cut out the middle man and skip scaling penalties.
I am sure there are many powers pre-30 that, if allowed in a level 31+ environment would break the game.
A simple solution is to provide some sort of tier-immunity, and to make sure the powers you create for immortal's levels don't break down.
Example:
Say the tiers (of play, not of levels) go like this - Mortal - Divine - Sidereal - Eternal
You could just make a simple Sidereal trait mortal-immunity - Mortal-level powers are useless against them (auto miss, grant no benifits in their presence, etc), and Eternals might have Divine Immunity.
By the time the PCs hit the Sidereal tier, their abilities from the mortal levels should start to be breaking the game down. Begining to encounter Sidereals with their immunity is a a mechanical incentive for them to trade up their 'Armor Splinter' (-~20 AC) for the Divine power Deatomizer (Far more damaging than Armor spliter, -4 AC to the foe, but still -2 on a miss) which, while it doesn't grant nearly the penalty, will deal appropriate damage for it's level.
 
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Howdy Ltheb mate! :)

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
This is indeed an important factor; and one that will be the most difficult to approach.

On the one hand, you could have powers scale in damage, but if you make them scale in other things, (like the mentioned AC penalty) the game could break down like 3E breaks down to straight Sucess/fail.

Indeed.

Example: Lvl 99 with that -16 to AC power (hypothetically) - If you land this power, that opponent will die. The fight will become grossly easier with powers that destroy the 4E power scaling (5X so against a solo enemy), Unless the DM just ups the foe's AC by a similar ammount, which means landing said power will now be impossible, and the fight will be unwinnable.

Agreed. I realise now that although damage should double every 25 levels, a double-double should equal a triple, not a quodruple.

The factors of powers that I think should scale:
* Damage - Needs to, and linearly, since no exponential HP explosions. Also, base weapon damage should not scale, but powers that use weapons should deal more X[W].

Absolutely. Also At-will powers should get an upgrade too.

* Movement - Once deities are involved, scales need to increase. Especially at the cosmic level. It would be awesome to see a (cosmic) ranger shift behind a planet and use it as cover.

Yes, I think increasing this to parallel the new size tier differences works best.

* Area - Needs to scale if movement scales. (Cosmic) wizards need to be able to hurl sun-sized blasts to catch those pesky cosmic rangers.

I'll look into it.

* Range - Same reason as move/area.

Yes.

* Ongoing damage - easy to scale, ~5 damage per 10 levels.
* Resistance Piercing - Should not scale terribly fast, but should allow high level characters to of-handily defeat far lesser opposition.

May be the providence of portfolios. I already have plans for this.

* Depletion of Healing surges - This is really for monsters, but some monster (The Soldier-Wight, as an example) can just deplete healing surges directly on a hit. This should scale but very, very slowly because Healing Surges are linked to Con Mod, which could be a scaling attribute. A Charater with 50 Healing surges is not going to be inconvienced by losing 1 healing surge, and probably the other characters will have around 20 by then, so draining 2 at once might be in order by then.

I'll double check how they scale and modify Healing Surge Loss as appropriate.

Factors of powers that do not need to scale and I think interfere with a linear power progression:
* Powers granting increasing penalties/bonuses - Breaks a linear scale. A bonus to hit of +2 - +5 is enough to turn an average hit rate into a very high hit rate. A bonus to hit of +10 - +20 means you cannot miss except on a 1, or that the foe you are fighting could not have been hit without the powers. (or a clunky middle ground in-between) Some powers already scale like this (Armor-splinter - Ranger 13?; penalty equal to Wisdom Mod to foes AC) and need dealing with.

I think some portfolio powers may end up with absolutes of some measure - Always hitting for example. Still toying with the details.

* Status conditions - Adding new conditions is fine, but adding more conditions to each power with each new tier of power is not needed. Conditions are far stronger then damage. I ran a ranger the other day at a friends game that was completely neutered by Immobilize, Daze, and ongoing damage hitting him every other round. A single attack that deals more than 2 conditions is probably too much.

Clearly new conditions need to be policed. We don't want another situation like Stun.

* More powers: ~3 At wills, 4-7 Encounter, 4-7 Daily, and about 10 utiliy (of mixed use rates) are probably enough powers for every one. At level 100, we don't need 10/18/18/37 powers for each character. 18 encounter powers? You could never use them all! (If you can, your fights probably last about 8 hours each!)

I won't be adding more powers for 31+ levels. With the possible caveat of an Aura power.

* Number of attack rolls - After a certain point, this leads to absurdity. 2-6 attacks is more than enough for one power.

Again I think a balance between the number of attacks (within a power) and its damage, are easy to balance.

Now, the chief problems I can see with infinite (or extreme) extrapolation of the current rules are powers that violate the views I note above. Example: Armor Spliter - A penalty greater than 11 means you can't really miss. Not quite possible before level 30, but other powers can combine to do it. If you keep scaling penalties/bonuses, then you need to give all monsters more defense, which means all the powers need to grant bonuses and penalties to even initially hit, which means you probably should just cut out the middle man and skip scaling penalties.

Fortunately infinite progression is not on the cards. ;)

I am sure there are many powers pre-30 that, if allowed in a level 31+ environment would break the game.
A simple solution is to provide some sort of tier-immunity, and to make sure the powers you create for immortal's levels don't break down.
Example:
Say the tiers (of play, not of levels) go like this - Mortal - Divine - Sidereal - Eternal
You could just make a simple Sidereal trait mortal-immunity - Mortal-level powers are useless against them (auto miss, grant no benifits in their presence, etc), and Eternals might have Divine Immunity.
By the time the PCs hit the Sidereal tier, their abilities from the mortal levels should start to be breaking the game down. Begining to encounter Sidereals with their immunity is a a mechanical incentive for them to trade up their 'Armor Splinter' (-~20 AC) for the Divine power Deatomizer (Far more damaging than Armor spliter, -4 AC to the foe, but still -2 on a miss) which, while it doesn't grant nearly the penalty, will deal appropriate damage for it's level.

Not sure I like rendering powers obsolete like that. Though there may not be a choice. Food for thought anyway.

Great post, thanks for that. :)
 

U_K!
If you want, I did all the math and extrapolated all the weapon power formulae, and I could send it to you. (Do you have Excell or Open Office?)
In short: Damage does not double. It scales linearly. If you double it, the game breaks and you need to start doubling other things. The powers deal a 'range' of damage that is consistant at every level. If you start doubling things, the range will expand and some powers become grossly better.
Example: From my calculations, Daily powers that deal damage alone, by pure virtue of their damage dice, should take away ~1/8th of the life of a standard monster. If you start doubling damage instead of a linear progression, they will take away more than 1/8th. If you do the same with encounter powers, then eventually they will be as strong as dailys. This would break the game as bad as introducing a weapon that did 6d6 base damage.
Again, I have the formulae extracted from every level of every class, and all the power attack formulas deal a linear progression (actually, 1 of 3 linear progressions with a few exceptions) of damage.
 


Howdy Ltheb mate! :)

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
U_K!
If you want, I did all the math and extrapolated all the weapon power formulae, and I could send it to you. (Do you have Excell or Open Office?)
In short: Damage does not double. It scales linearly. If you double it, the game breaks and you need to start doubling other things. The powers deal a 'range' of damage that is consistant at every level. If you start doubling things, the range will expand and some powers become grossly better.

No its okay, thanks for the offer though. I worked this out the first day I had the books. The reason I arrived at the 'double every 25 levels' thing is that after the first 25 levels it does effectively double even when being scaled linearly. I simply didn't make anything above Level 60. So there was no need to extrapolate beyond that.

Example: From my calculations, Daily powers that deal damage alone, by pure virtue of their damage dice, should take away ~1/8th of the life of a standard monster. If you start doubling damage instead of a linear progression, they will take away more than 1/8th. If you do the same with encounter powers, then eventually they will be as strong as dailys. This would break the game as bad as introducing a weapon that did 6d6 base damage.

By my reckoning the progression is roughly as follows (tempered by various conditions and parameters of course):

Daily: 3[W] @ 1st, increases 1[W] each new daily group

Encounter: 2[W] @ 1st, increases 1[W] every second new Encounter Group

At-Will: 1[W] @ 1st, increases 1[W] every 20 levels.

So by 29th, you could effectively have:

At Will: 2[W]
Encounter: 5[W]
Daily: 9[W]

By 59th-level you could have:

At Will: 3[W]
Encounter: 8[W]
Daily: 15[W]

By 99th:

At Will: 5[W]
Encounter: 12[W]
Daily: 23[W]

Those are of course your basic powers with no other conditions and so forth.

Again, I have the formulae extracted from every level of every class, and all the power attack formulas deal a linear progression (actually, 1 of 3 linear progressions with a few exceptions) of damage.

What I have been trying to work out is the numerical value of everything else within powers. So as to have a "Power Builder".
 

U_K! (Seriously, this needs to be an emote or a smily or something)

Your math looks about right, but at the low end, you seem a bit high, and at the high end, you are more or less accurate (below a bit, but I only calculated the range, which your math falls into at 99th. :)

I'll post my findings here, and upload an excel doc with the math & formulas later.

Daily Powers:
3 Kinds: Low power, Middle Power, and High power. (Low, Mid, High for short) (Exceptions abounds, depends on Defender/Striker/Controller/Etc)
Formula: (Note: Round all fractions down always!)
High Damage Formula: 2 1/2[W] + 1/2[W] per daily rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Mid Damage: 1 1/2[W] + 1/2[W] per daily rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Low Damage: 1/2[W] + 1/2[W] per daily rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Low damage formula should give max damage on moves with nasty side effects.
Mid damage for average dailys with maybe one benefit (like a shift) or one condition (slowed).
High damage should only be used for pure-damageing moves. (Like Godstrike) (With possible reliable tag or 1/2 damage on a miss)

Encounter Powers:
Also 3 kinds: Low power, Middle Power, and High power. (Low, Mid, High for short) (Exceptions abounds, depends on Defender/Striker/Controller/Etc)
Formula: (Note: Round all fractions down always!)
High Damage: 2[W] + 1/3[W] per encounter rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Mid Damage: 1 1/3[W] + 1/3[W] per encounter rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Low Damage: 2/3[W] + 1/3[W] per encounter rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Low damage formula should give max damage on moves with nasty side effects.
Mid damage for average dailys with maybe one benefit (like a shift) or one condition (slowed).
High damage should only be used for pure-damageing moves.

For spells (and things that don't use increments of [W]):
- For each [W] take the average of a D8. (averaged size die, 4.5 damage)
- Take that total, and divide by the average die roll of the size of die you want to use.
Example: Bob the 100th level timelord, wants to unleash some form of dimension-rending daily attack. He wants this power to also weaken his target. Formula shows he should deal 21[W] with his attack. Since he plans on shooting some sort of reality-shattering beam, a sword or axe should not play into this. He wants to use D6s, because, c'mon, it's pretty visceral to roll a fist-full of dice. 21x4.5=94.5;94.5/3.5(for d6 average)=27. Bob the Timelord's Dimensional Sundering beam should roll 27d6 damage. (plus whatever applicable bonuses from ability mods, magical implements, feats, etc)
 
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Hey dude! :)

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
U_K! (Seriously, this needs to be an emote or a smily or something)

:D

Your math looks about right, but at the low end, you seem a bit high, and at the high end, you are more or less accurate (below a bit, but I only calculated the range, which your math falls into at 99th. :)

Should be sufficient for our needs. I like the point you raised in a previous post about spells getting wider rather than necessarily more damaging. Personally I think hit points are totally subejective now, rather than objective.

For instance a Tarrasque may have 1500 hp (or whatever) as a L30 solo monster but as a Level 47 Minion it would only have 1 hp.

I can see the destruction of mountains, towns and cities (and planets) to be similarly subjective. Theres no sense giving a mountain 1 million hit points at any level.

So again I'll probably use this cheap and cheerful new size rules I am cooking up for static objects as well as really big monsters.

Exalted Tier ~ Mega ~ Huge Building, Godzilla
Immortal Tier ~ Giga ~ Mountain, Typhon, Jormungandr
Sidereal Tier ~ Tera ~ Planet, Alklha
etc.

I'll post my findings here, and upload an excel doc with the math & formulas later.

Okay, cool.

Daily Powers:
3 Kinds: Low power, Middle Power, and High power. (Low, Mid, High for short) (Exceptions abounds, depends on Defender/Striker/Controller/Etc)
Formula: (Note: Round all fractions down always!)
High Damage Formula: 2 1/2[W] + 1/2[W] per daily rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Mid Damage: 1 1/2[W] + 1/2[W] per daily rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Low Damage: 1/2[W] + 1/2[W] per daily rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Low damage formula should give max damage on moves with nasty side effects.
Mid damage for average dailys with maybe one benefit (like a shift) or one condition (slowed).
High damage should only be used for pure-damageing moves. (Like Godstrike) (With possible reliable tag or 1/2 damage on a miss)

Encounter Powers:
Also 3 kinds: Low power, Middle Power, and High power. (Low, Mid, High for short) (Exceptions abounds, depends on Defender/Striker/Controller/Etc)
Formula: (Note: Round all fractions down always!)
High Damage: 2[W] + 1/3[W] per encounter rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Mid Damage: 1 1/3[W] + 1/3[W] per encounter rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Low Damage: 2/3[W] + 1/3[W] per encounter rank. (Count first level as a rank)
Low damage formula should give max damage on moves with nasty side effects.
Mid damage for average dailys with maybe one benefit (like a shift) or one condition (slowed).
High damage should only be used for pure-damageing moves.

Nicely done. My idea was/is to start with the highest possible figure and then strip that away depending upon which effects and conditions you stack on to it. That way you get a good variety of damages even at the same level.

The trick is of course in accurately rating each condition and effect. ;)

For spells (and things that don't use increments of [W]):
- For each [W] take the average of a D8. (averaged size die, 4.5 damage)
- Take that total, and divide by the average die roll of the size of die you want to use.
Example: Bob the 100th level timelord, wants to unleash some form of dimension-rending daily attack. He wants this power to also weaken his target. Formula shows he should deal 21[W] with his attack. Since he plans on shooting some sort of reality-shattering beam, a sword or axe should not play into this. He wants to use D6s, because, c'mon, it's pretty visceral to roll a fist-full of dice. 21x4.5=94.5;94.5/3.5(for d6 average)=27. Bob the Timelord's Dimensional Sundering beam should roll 27d6 damage. (plus whatever applicable bonuses from ability mods, magical implements, feats, etc)

Like this last bit. :)
 

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