4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Khisanth the Ancient]

I cannot even fathom how someone would create 100+ monsters at that level of power which were not simply complete rip offs of existing monsters 'powered up'.

True. Even my most crazy overpowered ideas (Infinity Hydra, creature of Muzaloth with an infinite number of heads extending into many dimensions at once, but can only bring a finite number to bear at once, probably an Anomaly; Cosmophage, a living version of the binary Green and Black Suns from The House on the Borderland, probably a top level Sidereal; Morbus, corruptor and devourer of universes, a Time Lord) could be Anomalies, Demiurges, or Time Lords - so they could be fought at Sidereal Tier.

When will the Legendary Tier rules come out? I know you couldn't have a set date this early, but what point in the writing are you at?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Khisanth mate!

True. Even my most crazy overpowered ideas (Infinity Hydra, creature of Muzaloth with an infinite number of heads extending into many dimensions at once, but can only bring a finite number to bear at once, probably an Anomaly; Cosmophage, a living version of the binary Green and Black Suns from The House on the Borderland, probably a top level Sidereal; Morbus, corruptor and devourer of universes, a Time Lord) could be Anomalies, Demiurges, or Time Lords - so they could be fought at Sidereal Tier.

I find monster design pretty easy, but the higher you get the more difficult it is to create enough interesting monsters. I have brainstormed it and I don't see anything beyond Sidereal PCs feasible.

When will the Legendary Tier rules come out?

Hopefully about 6 months after the collaboration begins, that could be in January, but may possibly slip to March.

I know you couldn't have a set date this early, but what point in the writing are you at?

Actually I have a set date in my mind, but thats going to depend upon everything gel'ing with the new writers, and the start date. At this point I am guessing a 64 page pdf split four ways should be plausible every 2 months...but theres a world of difference between plausible and finished.

The Immortals Handbook: Legendary Tier book is pencilled down as the third book the group will tackle. Thus, theoretically it should be done about 6 months or so from when we start.

One 'problem' is that I have to have my quarter of the book finished first, to act as a template for the others and also to free me up to take on the interior art while they do their writing.

I am taking a month off work either late January/early February and I may need that time to get my parts of the first 3-4 books completed. So the collaboration may not start until March (worst case scenario).

At the moment I actually have two Portfolios and one and a half classes basically finished, so its just a matter of typing those up and finishing the Cleric. I also have a few new races, so I'll probably do one of those as well. Then the other writers will need to do 2 portfolios, 2 classes and probably 1 new race each (for the Immortals Handbook).

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

I see why the 3 tier system is the way to go for 4e... it just means I'll have to come up with a different history for my setting

I had one Old One taking down huge numbers (probably tens of thousands total) of Hero-/Quasi-/Demi-deities in a single battle, and being able to take on average Elder Ones with essentially absolute certainty of victory (and be able to win, though challenged, fighting several at once). If 5 PC Elder Ones can take out a Demiurge, that makes an Old One taking out 5 NPC Elder Ones (though they are less powerful) over and over less likely - he created the Abyss by defeating almost all of the 666 Elder Ones that represent its layers.

I suppose I'll just have to reduce the numbers of the 'Children of Teteoinan' if I use it with 4e, and ramp up Teteoinan herself to the absolute top of First One...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I see why the 3 tier system is the way to go for 4e... it just means I'll have to come up with a different history for my setting

I had one Old One taking down huge numbers (probably tens of thousands total) of Hero-/Quasi-/Demi-deities in a single battle, and being able to take on average Elder Ones with essentially absolute certainty of victory (and be able to win, though challenged, fighting several at once). If 5 PC Elder Ones can take out a Demiurge, that makes an Old One taking out 5 NPC Elder Ones (though they are less powerful) over and over less likely - he created the Abyss by defeating almost all of the 666 Elder Ones that represent its layers.

I suppose I'll just have to reduce the numbers of the 'Children of Teteoinan' if I use it with 4e, and ramp up Teteoinan herself to the absolute top of First One...

Well there could be ways around it.

1. Say that this particular deity was special and thus an 'Elite' version of itself mimicking the boost the PCs get. In fact I was toying with the idea that 'Home Realm' would indeed add such an advantage.
2. Don't let the deity be encountered alone. Encounters with the 'end boss' don't simply have to be solo encounters, even if its a solo monster. This doesn't need to be additional monsters even but could be traps or hazards.

 

[Rhuarc]

Hey UK,

there was a very interesting answer in this weeks Rule-of-Three article about Level 30+ 4E:

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Rule-of-Three: 05/09/2011)

Will there ever be any support for taking characters higher than 30th level, or is 30th level the maximum characters can ever achieve?

This isn’t something that we’re planning on covering any time soon, but it has come up. Right now, we feel we have enough issues with epic tier support that adding another layer to the game would just exacerbate the problem. When we get to the point that epic tier has enough options and is running smoothly, we might then take a look at expanding the game "upward".

So, taking into account the time you need to finish your planned products, I guess we could see official rules of playing Immortals (or something similar) before you are done with the IH.

What I'm trying to say is: Please take this as another incentive to hurry up and get something done
It's killing me to know what you are capable of doing, reading about ideas and plans and then having to wait years without getting even a small part of what you want to do...
Last year you finally decided to get some support from other people, and I was overjoyed to read about that, and now even this seems to be going nowhere.

Anyway, hope is still clinging to life, even if it is just barely.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK,

Hey Rhuarc amigo!

there was a very interesting answer in this weeks Rule-of-Three article about Level 30+ 4E:

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Rule-of-Three: 05/09/2011)

Thanks for the link.

I can sort of see his point though. The epic tier is in no way epic (as discussed in my Ten Commandments of Epic article), and personally I wonder if you need a solid foundation before you build something on top.

I basically don't like every epic monster released to date. In my opinion Dragons are too high level, Demons are too high level, Devils are too high level.

Part of me wants to redo it all properly because I don't like the option of building on top of the existing epic fails.

Ancient Red Dragon should be Solo 20, not 30. Same thing with Pit Fiends and so forth. But I don't know if I should acknowledge the existing rules or ignore them and do my own thing.

So, taking into account the time you need to finish your planned products, I guess we could see official rules of playing Immortals (or something similar) before you are done with the IH.

Anythings possible I suppose.

What I'm trying to say is: Please take this as another incentive to hurry up and get something done

I know, I know. The VB is nearly done, really annoyingly I got sick this past week with the cold and didn't get much done. The artist was on holiday over Easter and took a couple of weeks off. But seriously its nearly ready (like I haven't said that before). If it hadn't been for me being sick this week I would have been ready to show a few select people the first 80 pages totally completed...and the remaining pages after that are almost done too.

It's killing me to know what you are capable of doing, reading about ideas and plans and then having to wait years without getting even a small part of what you want to do...

I know, but thats my problem and I'll carry that around like a (metaphorically apt) tortoise shell.

Last year you finally decided to get some support from other people, and I was overjoyed to read about that, and now even this seems to be going nowhere.

Well the idea was to start that after the Vampire Bestiary was on sale...and we know how that turned out - again, I planned the VB to be 64 pages and like the moron I am it is now 128 pages (and three volumes).

Anyway, hope is still clinging to life, even if it is just barely.

Deep breaths. Things are on the way, but this is me so delays are inevitable.

 

[Rhuarc]

I can sort of see his point though. The epic tier is in no way epic (as discussed in my Ten Commandments of Epic article), and personally I wonder if you need a solid foundation before you build something on top.

I definitely agree with you there. And I'm convinced you can only have a really successful higher tier if the lower tiers are fitting and solid enough. Even though I'm sure they won't turn the epic tier into the form we want to see, they'll probably come up with a few nice and interesting things to spice up the last ten levels. That they are aware of the dire need of support is a good sign at least.

I basically don't like every epic monster released to date. In my opinion Dragons are too high level, Demons are too high level, Devils are too high level.

Well, I don't like every epic monster either, but never saw dragons and demons/devils as too high. What are you suggesting should characters in the level 26-30 range battle? For the "normal" D&D world there is nothing more powerful than demon princes and archdevils along with the Great Wyrms (except deities of course). Shouldn't they be part of the last levels?

Part of me wants to redo it all properly because I don't like the option of building on top of the existing epic fails.

As much as I would love to see that, I'm afraid your time won't allow that to happen (though you can always send me your ideas or files and I'll try to create something presentable out of it, have a lot of free time on my hands and almost daily create new high-level monsters or search the web for inspiration )

But I don't know if I should acknowledge the existing rules or ignore them and do my own thing.

Well, easier for you to work with what is already there. Even if you are not 100% happy with it, I guess at this time it is better to take the faster route than to make things even more complicated and time-consuming for you. But as said, would love to see or hear what you would do instead.


Anyway, best of luck.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rhuarc matey!

I definitely agree with you there. And I'm convinced you can only have a really successful higher tier if the lower tiers are fitting and solid enough. Even though I'm sure they won't turn the epic tier into the form we want to see, they'll probably come up with a few nice and interesting things to spice up the last ten levels. That they are aware of the dire need of support is a good sign at least.

I'd be happy to know they were planning something concrete.

Well, I don't like every epic monster either, but never saw dragons and demons/devils as too high. What are you suggesting should characters in the level 26-30 range battle?

I have a big list of these on a website article I have yet to publish.

There are very few epic races though:

Abominations
Apocalypse Spells
Starspawn
Forsaken
Weavers
Primordials
Demon Princes
Arch-devils
Gods
Inevitables...maybe

To which I'd add stuff like...

Archangels
Umbrals
Godslayers (Unique Abominations)
Bi-Sects
Devoids
Disir
Grigori
Intelligibles
Lhas
Sidhe
Sirians
Vetala

Not to mention things like the more powerful dragons and golems...and thats all before we even get to the Immortal Tier.

For the "normal" D&D world there is nothing more powerful than demon princes and archdevils along with the Great Wyrms (except deities of course). Shouldn't they be part of the last levels?

The point that everyone seems to have forgotten is that in 3E there was no real 'epic' until the Epic Level Handbook.

Whats happened with 4E though is that, for the most part, they have populated the Epic Tier with previously 'non-epic' monsters. Which means you have basic dragons, demons and devils filling places that they really shouldn't.

As much as I would love to see that, I'm afraid your time won't allow that to happen (though you can always send me your ideas or files and I'll try to create something presentable out of it, have a lot of free time on my hands and almost daily create new high-level monsters or search the web for inspiration )

The first thing I would do is reduce (virtually*) every monster of level 21+ (in 4E) by 10 levels (ie. an Ancient Red Dragon becomes Level 20)

*Named monsters I would probably reduce by 5 levels instead (ie. Orcus becomes level 28).

Well, easier for you to work with what is already there. Even if you are not 100% happy with it, I guess at this time it is better to take the faster route than to make things even more complicated and time-consuming for you. But as said, would love to see or hear what you would do instead.

See above, I'd drop everything by 5/10 levels.

Anyway, best of luck.

Thanks.

 

[Rhuarc]

The point that everyone seems to have forgotten is that in 3E there was no real 'epic' until the Epic Level Handbook.

Whats happened with 4E though is that, for the most part, they have populated the Epic Tier with previously 'non-epic' monsters. Which means you have basic dragons, demons and devils filling places that they really shouldn't.

Well, you have a point there.

The first thing I would do is reduce (virtually*) every monster of level 21+ (in 4E) by 10 levels (ie. an Ancient Red Dragon becomes Level 20)

Alright, so for example you would reduce a Marut Blademaster or a Fire Titan to level 11 (down from 21)? That would mean you need to change many of the monsters in the Paragon tier as well.
I mean a Goristro demon (level 19) can't stay the same if the Balor gets reduced to level 17.

*Named monsters I would probably reduce by 5 levels instead (ie. Orcus becomes level 28).

So, this means you would have to create your own upper echelon demons to fight epic characters, right? If Orcus is 28, your level 24/25 group can't be fighting level 17 Balors in his throneroom anymore. And there aren't many demons or devils above level 27 at the moment which are not named.


Don't let me hold you back on your writing, just like to get into these details with you. Answer when you can/want to

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rhuarc amigo!

Well, you have a point there.

Alright, so for example you would reduce a Marut Blademaster or a Fire Titan to level 11 (down from 21)? That would mean you need to change many of the monsters in the Paragon tier as well.
I mean a Goristro demon (level 19) can't stay the same if the Balor gets reduced to level 17.

The -10/-5 reduction is the closest carte blanche approximation I can give.

Obviously it would be better to go back manually and set things though...and yes it would impact onto the Paragon and even Heroic Tiers.

For instance I'm thinking dragons should be:

1-5 Elite = Small
1-5 Solo = Medium
6-10 Solo = Large
11-15 Solo = Huge
16-20 Solo = Gargantuan

Any group changed in the Epic Tier would need looking at in the other Tiers also.

So, this means you would have to create your own upper echelon demons to fight epic characters, right? If Orcus is 28, your level 24/25 group can't be fighting level 17 Balors in his throneroom anymore. And there aren't many demons or devils above level 27 at the moment which are not named.

They can still be fighting Balors, simply that they would be rank adjusted to be either Standard or Minion rank.

Don't let me hold you back on your writing, just like to get into these details with you. Answer when you can/want to

I've been sick with the cold for the past 8-9 days and unfortunately had to start back to work on Friday night (through to Tuesday morning). So if my posting seems somewhat delayed thats the reason.