4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Rhuarc]

The -10/-5 reduction is the closest carte blanche approximation I can give.

Obviously it would be better to go back manually and set things though...and yes it would impact onto the Paragon and even Heroic Tiers.
Any group changed in the Epic Tier would need looking at in the other Tiers also.

Mh, maybe I will take the time and assign new levels to the monsters in the MM I, according to your estimates. Should be entertaining and quite interesting to see how the list looks like at the end

They can still be fighting Balors, simply that they would be rank adjusted to be either Standard or Minion rank.

Ah true, you have a nice conversion formula to change the rank of the monsters. Could you re-post this one again?

I've been sick with the cold for the past 8-9 days and unfortunately had to start back to work on Friday night (through to Tuesday morning). So if my posting seems somewhat delayed thats the reason.

Well, I meant the writing on the Vampire Bestiary, but in this case I wish you to get better soon!

 

[Rhuarc]

Hey UK, two more questions if you don't mind.


First, could you please list your take on the tiers and what level range they will/should have in your opinion?

Second, do you generally support the fact that epic D&D characters should be able to challenge the gods? If I would expand my game to higher levels, there would be a "Legendary" tier between Epic and Divine/Immortal. So epic PCs would still be a long shot away from being able to take on true divine beings.


Thanks

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again amigo!

Mh, maybe I will take the time and assign new levels to the monsters in the MM I, according to your estimates. Should be entertaining and quite interesting to see how the list looks like at the end

Well the dragons are easily handled (as previously noted).

Giants and Titans should all probably be over the Paragon Tier.

Maybe...

11 = Hill
13 = Stone
15 = Frost
17 = Fire
19 = Storm

...and make the Titans +1 Level and Elite.

Ah true, you have a nice conversion formula to change the rank of the monsters. Could you re-post this one again?

You just keep the XP total the same.

Minion = +8
Standard = +/-0
Elite = -4
Solo = -9

Well, I meant the writing on the Vampire Bestiary, but in this case I wish you to get better soon!

Oh, okay. Well near-ly there on that one.

Hey UK, two more questions if you don't mind.

I can answer as many as you'd like.

First, could you please list your take on the tiers and what level range they will/should have in your opinion?

I don't understand this question.

Second, do you generally support the fact that epic D&D characters should be able to challenge the gods?

Of course. But not in the way the official rules set out.

No epic party should be able to waltz into a god's home and defeat them.

But they might be able to undertake a series of side quests to weaken the god/boost their chances to the point where they can have a SLIM chance of killing the god on its home plane.

If I would expand my game to higher levels, there would be a "Legendary" tier between Epic and Divine/Immortal. So epic PCs would still be a long shot away from being able to take on true divine beings.

I really wouldn't do that for a number of reasons. First and foremost, with what will you populate this new tier?

Thanks

Anytime mate.

 

[Rhuarc]

Well the dragons are easily handled (as previously noted).

Giants and Titans should all probably be over the Paragon Tier.

Yeah, it's coming along nicely. Will post a list here for you to go over, if you choose to do so, when I'm finished.

You just keep the XP total the same.

Minion = +8
Standard = +/-0
Elite = -4
Solo = -9

Ah, well that's easy to remember. But don't you mean +4/+9? So a level 10 solo monster is a level 19 standard one instead? Or did I misunderstand something here...

I don't understand this question.

Sorry for being not clear. I meant the following:

Heroic Tier (1-10)
Paragon Tier (11-20)
Epic Tier (21-30)
Immortal Tier (31-40)
...

I really wouldn't do that for a number of reasons. First and foremost, with what will you populate this new tier?

Well, as I will have the gods and demon lords/archdevils in the Divine Tier, there is plenty of space to fill-in the 10 levels with higher servants of each of the factions. Also, never a shortage of more powerful creatures from the Far Realm or Abominations (as you've listed as well).
In fact I have a list of over 600 monsters and unique adversaries (though mostly unique ones) with which I can populate my Legendary Tier (as said, was busy the last two years gathering inspiration from all over the interwebs ^^)
Have similar lists for all other tiers I would use (Heroic, Paragon, Epic, Divine, Cosmic, Sideral and Eternal), with varying numbers of course.

All in all I have an additional 4.500 creatures ready to receive stat blocks and challenge characters from level 1 to 80.
Just need the groundwork to be done in form of your Immortal rules to tackle the higher level ones (and a working Monster Builder, damn you WotC!)


Any other reasons you wouldn't do that?

 

[Rhuarc]

Hey UK mate

Well the dragons are easily handled (as previously noted).

Giants and Titans should all probably be over the Paragon Tier.

It's pretty strange when I look at the heroic tier of the new list. You'll have Azer and Githyanki together with Orcs and Goblins in the same tier.
But I guess one can find some reasons why heroic tier characters could come into contact with such opponents.

Anyway, halfway done

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK mate

Hello again Rhaurc amigo!

It's pretty strange when I look at the heroic tier of the new list. You'll have Azer and Githyanki together with Orcs and Goblins in the same tier.
But I guess one can find some reasons why heroic tier characters could come into contact with such opponents.

Anyway, halfway done

I think you have to look at social groups of monsters and place them into pidgeon holes of power.

Threat level

1-5 = Village
6-10 = Town
11-15 = City
16-20 = Country
21-25 = Continent/Empire
26-30 = World

Solo Monster = Threat on its own
Elite Monster = Threat as party of 4-5
Standard Monster = Depends on the size of the group in relation to normal humans...

Normal Humans Threat Level

Village = 25+
Town = 250+
City = 2500+
Country = 25,000+
Empire = 250,000+
World = 2.5+ million

So lets look at 3 social groups: Orcs, Githyanki and Forsaken

- Orcs = Humans so you would need a group of 250,000+ to threaten an empire

- Githyanki = a tier above humans so we need about 1% of the same numbers to threaten the same area. So 2500 to threaten an empire.

- Forsaken = two tiers above humans so we need 0.01% of the same numbers to threaten the same area. So 25 to threaten an Empire.

The more powerful the monster, the wider the area it should threaten. Just being Level 25 is not enough, because thats just game math. The more powerful the monster the more it needs powers to cover a large area.

How does an Ancient Red Dragon threaten a world? It simply doesn't.

 

[Rhuarc]

So you see 4-5 elite Forsaken as a way bigger threat than an Ancient Red Dragon? Hard to imagine...maybe equal. But threatening an area so much bigger than the dragon with such a small group
?

Also I think that's why my idea about a Legendary Tier (see Post# 714) isn't that bad. I think the difference between 2-3 levels shouldn't be enough to jump from an empire threat level to a world threat. Stretching that out would help making that a bit more believable (at least in my opinion).

Hello again Rhaurc amigo!
The more powerful the monster, the wider the area it should threaten. Just being Level 25 is not enough, because thats just game math. The more powerful the monster the more it needs powers to cover a large area.

How does an Ancient Red Dragon threaten a world? It simply doesn't.

Well, I agree with you here

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

So you see 4-5 elite Forsaken as a way bigger threat than an Ancient Red Dragon?

Conceptually, heck yes!

Mechanically I don't really think there has been a proper epic monster designed yet.

But the question is whether a bunch of forgotten demigods are more powerful than an 'Earthly' dragon...I think so.

Hard to imagine...maybe equal. But threatening an area so much bigger than the dragon with such a small group

Why not?

Also I think that's why my idea about a Legendary Tier (see Post# 714) isn't that bad.

I have weighed up the pro's and cons of an inbetween tier and ultimately I honestly don't see any positives for having it.

I think the difference between 2-3 levels shouldn't be enough to jump from an empire threat level to a world threat. Stretching that out would help making that a bit more believable (at least in my opinion).

2-3 levels could be the difference between raising the dead, casting wish and so forth.

 

[Rhuarc]

Why not?

Well, maybe I should have read-up on the Forsaken once more before making the comment, forgot they should be treated as demigods.
But maybe it really lies with the designed mechanics of such epic monsters. For the ususal combat encounters with a group of PCs the stat blocks are fine (at least for standard and most of the elite monsters), but for the overall threat level (storywise) they miss abilities that were present in 3.5.
Epic spells or powers which emulate them would go a long way in making such creatures a more dire threat, as they should be in the epic tier.

I have weighed up the pro's and cons of an inbetween tier and ultimately I honestly don't see any positives for having it.

Maybe it's just me, but I have a quite hard time coming up with many cool adventure ideas for Immortal characters off the top of my head without having more details about the potential setting. I mean once you are as powerful as gods there aren't many other routes to take than going "cosmic" (meaning threats that are not from the standard camaign world or the standard planes), right? You have to create new planes/dimensions and define how cosmic beings fit in the overall scheme of things.
I guess, at least at the moment, I'd rather explore a bit more of the basic multiverse and having many sources of inspiration ready to come up with challenges than taking the next step. Guess that's a big reason why I'd design another tier in between.

But you have a different view point, having thought about the expansion of the multiverse for many years (and having touched the subject a bit in the IH), so I think it comes easier to you.


By the way, it would be great if you could respond to post #714 as well, pretty sure you overlooked it as I made a double post

Thanks!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahoy there Rhuarc!

Yeah, it's coming along nicely. Will post a list here for you to go over, if you choose to do so, when I'm finished.

Okay.

Ah, well that's easy to remember. But don't you mean +4/+9? So a level 10 solo monster is a level 19 standard one instead? Or did I misunderstand something here...

If the standard monster is x (ie. +/-0 ) then a solo monster of the same XP value is x-9

Sorry for being not clear. I meant the following:

Heroic Tier (1-10)
Paragon Tier (11-20)
Epic Tier (21-30)
Immortal Tier (31-40)
...

Yes thats right.

Well, as I will have the gods and demon lords/archdevils in the Divine Tier, there is plenty of space to fill-in the 10 levels with higher servants of each of the factions.

So are you saying you are making Orcus and Demogorgon Level 40 something?

Also, never a shortage of more powerful creatures from the Far Realm or Abominations (as you've listed as well).

Ultimately there'll be a shortage. But I think the key for Epic and Immortal Tier monsters is in developing new powers/conditions that people haven't seen before. If its just the same monster but higher level then it's somewhat self-defeating to just have more math.

In fact I have a list of over 600 monsters and unique adversaries (though mostly unique ones) with which I can populate my Legendary Tier (as said, was busy the last two years gathering inspiration from all over the interwebs ^^)

Kewl!

Have similar lists for all other tiers I would use (Heroic, Paragon, Epic, Divine, Cosmic, Sideral and Eternal), with varying numbers of course.

All in all I have an additional 4.500 creatures ready to receive stat blocks and challenge characters from level 1 to 80.

Nice.

Just need the groundwork to be done in form of your Immortal rules to tackle the higher level ones (and a working Monster Builder, damn you WotC!)

...and of course the Powers, Feats, Items for about 25+ classes spanning a 50 Level gap between 31-80. Simples...a mere century of man-hours required and you should be good to go.

Any other reasons you wouldn't do that?

1. It'll take WAY too long.
2. The higher the level the greater chance of the game breaking down.
3. Very tough to come up with that many interesting monsters that are not simply reskins of lower level monsters.