4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Khisanth the Ancient]

I'm amazed no one has ever done anything with the Drakainai before (as far as I know of anyways)

Yeah, me too. They're pretty obscure though, sadly. Echidna is the only one that gets mentioned in a lot of 'basic' mythology references, but only as an ancestor of lots of monsters, rarely actually described. Kampe/Delphyne/Sybaris etc. are REALLY obscure...

I'm thinking of writing up the 'standard' (human-headed or even upper-bodied, snakelike, often with other creepy elements mishmashed in - e.g. Kampe's scorpion tail) drakainas as an epic dragon type. Perhaps Echidna would be Mature Adult or thereabouts, and Kampe a Great or Great-Great Wyrm?

My Typhon is an Ancient Lunar Dragon. Off hand I cannot remember the level though. Above 41st at any rate.

Cool. Why "Lunar", though? I don't remember any moon association with Typhon - he was basically an earth (chthonic/volcanic) being, though with storm associations too.

I think I have Kampe pencilled in as a Level 36 Solo Soldier. Zeus defeated her (as you note) and I don't think she'd be as powerful as Hades (37) but still within 5 of Zeus to give him a challenge.

In that case you probably have a smaller gap between Zeus and Hades than I would. If Hades is 37 what's Zeus at? I'd put Kampe above Hades, but then I'm not sure Hades would be a significant challenge for Zeus (isn't there something in the Iliad implying Zeus > All other Olympians combined ?)

You have given me a few nuggets in there.

Thanks!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

Yeah, me too. They're pretty obscure though, sadly. Echidna is the only one that gets mentioned in a lot of 'basic' mythology references, but only as an ancestor of lots of monsters, rarely actually described. Kampe/Delphyne/Sybaris etc. are REALLY obscure...

I'm thinking of writing up the 'standard' (human-headed or even upper-bodied, snakelike, often with other creepy elements mishmashed in - e.g. Kampe's scorpion tail) drakainas as an epic dragon type. Perhaps Echidna would be Mature Adult or thereabouts, and Kampe a Great or Great-Great Wyrm?

My idea is for them to be a subset of Abominations, monstrous giantish half-dragon she-things.

I don't want to make them too similar to the Gigantes though, I want to keep the Drakainai as different as possible but still based upon the mythology.

Cool. Why "Lunar", though? I don't remember any moon association with Typhon - he was basically an earth (chthonic/volcanic) being, though with storm associations too.

The whole multiple heads thing to me is very suggestive of the Far Realm and thus alien and by association the Moon/Lunar.

In that case you probably have a smaller gap between Zeus and Hades than I would. If Hades is 37 what's Zeus at? I'd put Kampe above Hades,

Zeus would probably be a 39.

Kampe unwillingly guards the gates of the underworld. I don't see her being necessarily more powerful than Hades.

but then I'm not sure Hades would be a significant challenge for Zeus (isn't there something in the Iliad implying Zeus > All other Olympians combined ?)

There are other texts were its implied Hades, Poseidon and Zeus and all near equals. My idea has Zeus more powerful, but not necessarily that more powerful.

Thanks!

You're welcome.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Hello again!



My idea is for them to be a subset of Abominations, monstrous giantish half-dragon she-things.

OK, cool.

The whole multiple heads thing to me is very suggestive of the Far Realm and thus alien and by association the Moon/Lunar.

Ah, OK. To me Lunar implies cold/nighttime/air associations, but that makes sense; perhaps they come from the dark side of the moon.

Kampe unwillingly guards the gates of the underworld. I don't see her being necessarily more powerful than Hades.

I was going with the idea that the Titans were Elder Ones... since Kampe was mainly active in the 'Titan [sidereal] period' she'd be more powerful than an equivalent being in the 'Olympian [immortal] period. I agree she wouldn't be as powerful as a sidereal-Hades-equivalent, though; that's why I was thinking Entity.

There are other texts were its implied Hades, Poseidon and Zeus and all near equals.

Very much so. Entirely a matter of what you want to emphasize. And I think it is better to do something more recognizable to most people rather than play off the more obscure versions too much.

If I were ever to do anything major with the Greek mythos, I'd do something a lot different than standard versions - mainly playing up the way 'aspects' or 'epithets' of one god could be treated as separate deities (Demeter being a particularly extreme case, with at least Demeter Erinys vs. Demeter Thesmophoros vs. Demeter Potnia being different enough to warrant different alignments - I'd put them as CN, LG-leaning-LN, and N respectively. Aphrodite Pandemos would be CN, Aphrodite Urania CG or NG. I'm not sure how this would be handled mechanically - maybe as avatars of the same deity that somehow have different alignments? The deity having a split quintessence pool, and only access to a certain amount of it depending on where it is/what it's doing - e.g. Demeter would temporarily lose access to the Erinys-portion of her Quintessence after going a certain amount of time without casting a direct damage spell, or something).

But that's probably far too niche to use.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Khisanth!

I was going with the idea that the Titans were Elder Ones... since Kampe was mainly active in the 'Titan [sidereal] period' she'd be more powerful than an equivalent being in the 'Olympian [immortal] period. I agree she wouldn't be as powerful as a sidereal-Hades-equivalent, though; that's why I was thinking Entity.

I think the idea that 4e has already a set idea what a Titan is has muddied the waters a tad with regards titans and TITANS.

Very much so. Entirely a matter of what you want to emphasize. And I think it is better to do something more recognizable to most people rather than play off the more obscure versions too much.

I don't think there are any right or wrong ways in such matters.

If I were ever to do anything major with the Greek mythos, I'd do something a lot different than standard versions - mainly playing up the way 'aspects' or 'epithets' of one god could be treated as separate deities (Demeter being a particularly extreme case, with at least Demeter Erinys vs. Demeter Thesmophoros vs. Demeter Potnia being different enough to warrant different alignments - I'd put them as CN, LG-leaning-LN, and N respectively. Aphrodite Pandemos would be CN, Aphrodite Urania CG or NG. I'm not sure how this would be handled mechanically - maybe as avatars of the same deity that somehow have different alignments? The deity having a split quintessence pool, and only access to a certain amount of it depending on where it is/what it's doing - e.g. Demeter would temporarily lose access to the Erinys-portion of her Quintessence after going a certain amount of time without casting a direct damage spell, or something).

But that's probably far too niche to use.

I think once you have a standard version (which is what most people want) you can then make an alternate version. A Greek version and a Roman version for instance. Chaotic Neutral (Good tendencies) vs. Lawful Neutral (Evil Tendencies)

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Since Immortals, Sidereals etc. are going to be only one tier each in 4e, will the old titles (Lesser Deity, Greater Deity, Old One, Demiurge...) be used at all?

Will it be like:

31st-34th Hero-deity
35th-37th Quasi deity
38th-40th Demi deity
41st-44th Lesser deity
45th-47th Intermediate deity
48th-50th Greater deity
...etc?

And, with the -9 levels to make a Solo, wouldn't that let a party of mere Demigod (39th level PCs) take out an Elder One/low-level Sidereal (51st level = 42nd level Solo), or a party of Greater Deities (49th-50th level) take out a Demiurge/low-level Eternal (61st-62nd level = 52nd-53rd level Solo)? I guess it seems to me that Greater Deity -> Elder One should be a much bigger step up in power than Intermediate Deity -> Greater Deity, but I suppose that'd be hard/impossible to make work in 4e (whereas in 3e the Sidereal templates could just have awesome abilities like Cosmic String and Cosmic Firmament)...

It just seems like mere Greater Deities taking out an Eternal is about like fleas taking out an elephant... I mean, they're fighting an *universe*...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Khisanth matey!

Since Immortals, Sidereals etc. are going to be only one tier each in 4e, will the old titles (Lesser Deity, Greater Deity, Old One, Demiurge...) be used at all?

Yes...

Will it be like:

31st-34th Hero-deity
35th-37th Quasi deity
38th-40th Demi deity
41st-44th Lesser deity
45th-47th Intermediate deity
48th-50th Greater deity
...etc?

No.

More like:

31-35 = Quasi-deity
36-40 = Demi-deity
41-45 = Deity (Lesser)
46-50 = Greater Deity
etc.

Hero-deity will be folded into Quasi, while Intermediate Deity is now an irrelevant term.

And, with the -9 levels to make a Solo, wouldn't that let a party of mere Demigod (39th level PCs) take out an Elder One/low-level Sidereal (51st level = 42nd level Solo), or a party of Greater Deities (49th-50th level) take out a Demiurge/low-level Eternal (61st-62nd level = 52nd-53rd level Solo)?

Yes. Pretty cool huh!

I guess it seems to me that Greater Deity -> Elder One should be a much bigger step up in power than Intermediate Deity -> Greater Deity, but I suppose that'd be hard/impossible to make work in 4e (whereas in 3e the Sidereal templates could just have awesome abilities like Cosmic String and Cosmic Firmament)...

It just seems like mere Greater Deities taking out an Eternal is about like fleas taking out an elephant... I mean, they're fighting an *universe*...

People don't have a problem with mere mortals taking out Orcus, Demogorgon, Tiamat and Vecna (all effectively Lesser Gods).

So a party of Quasi-deity PCs could take on a Greater Deity, a party of Demigod PCs an Elder One etc.

One minor facet of 4E is that the PCs are 'special' in that they are basically Elite versions of their own level. This sort of skews things so that you need slightly higher NPC/Monster opposition but I think its cool to face these powerful deities sooner rather than later.

As for sidereal powers, I'm not afraid to cull certain 3E Ascension powers if I think they will destabilize the game.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Yes...

Ok, awesome.

If there are 2 titles per tier, will elder one, old one, or first one be dropped?

Hero-deity will be folded into Quasi

Since (unlike in D&Dg) in your system Quasi-deities are actual Immortals with most of the powers of gods, just at lesser levels, why not save Hero-deity and get rid of Quasi-deity? It sounds more "fantastic", and cooler, as well.

while Intermediate Deity is now an irrelevant term.

Awesome!

(Intermediate Deity was the only term I never liked; for one thing, it tends to distort tables, being way longer than any of the other ranks' names; also, it just sounds lame to me... dunno why.)

Yes. Pretty cool huh!

It certainly makes sidereals and such more relevant to a game with a semi-sane power level.

People don't have a problem with mere mortals taking out Orcus, Demogorgon, Tiamat and Vecna (all effectively Lesser Gods).

Well ... it may be that I'm newer than some people on here, having come in in 3e when Orcus etc. were mid-to-high-20s CR, but I never thought of Orcus, Demogorgon, etc. as "real" deities, but as big, unique demons - scarily powerful, but not on the level of actual gods.

If I were making Orcus a match for a regular Lesser God, then I would have a problem with straightforward mortals taking him down without some sort of unusual circumstance. If he (or Vecna, Tiamat etc.) were wounded from battling another god, or the PCs had an artifact good for that sort of thing (like the Dragonlance vs. Takhisis), sure... Minor gods should be fair game for high-level-but-still-mortal PCs, but despite the name, Lesser Deities are pretty far up in the hierarchy - 3rd highest of 6 immortal ranks.

And I guess it seems to me there should be a pretty wide gap between Greater Deity and Elder One, and between First One and Demiurge. Immortals are still tightly linked to mortal reality, and Sidereals aren't; Sidereals are still finite beings, and Eternals are beginning not to be. The three Stages of Demiurge in 3.5e Ascension replicate this very well, to me - there's a huge gulf between a First One and a fully-powered (Stage III) Demiurge, much less a Time Lord. I don't think this will work in 4e though, if Eternals are just one tier.

Why not make Demiurges one tier (61-70), and Time/High Lords another (71-80)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Khisanth matey!

Ok, awesome.

If there are 2 titles per tier, will elder one, old one, or first one be dropped?

I'm thinking that Elder/Old one would be interchangeable (a bit like Hero/Quasi).

Since (unlike in D&Dg) in your system Quasi-deities are actual Immortals with most of the powers of gods, just at lesser levels, why not save Hero-deity and get rid of Quasi-deity? It sounds more "fantastic", and cooler, as well.

I sort of see them more as interchangeable, though I am not sure which I'll be adhering to for the tables.

(Intermediate Deity was the only term I never liked; for one thing, it tends to distort tables, being way longer than any of the other ranks' names; also, it just sounds lame to me... dunno why.)

I'm always happy to dismiss 2E/3E baboonery.

It certainly makes sidereals and such more relevant to a game with a semi-sane power level.

I think so.

Well ... it may be that I'm newer than some people on here, having come in in 3e when Orcus etc. were mid-to-high-20s CR, but I never thought of Orcus, Demogorgon, etc. as "real" deities, but as big, unique demons - scarily powerful, but not on the level of actual gods.

Thats why 1E was better.

If I were making Orcus a match for a regular Lesser God, then I would have a problem with straightforward mortals taking him down without some sort of unusual circumstance.

As DM you would be free to instigate some sort of unusual circumstances...or not, as you saw fit.

If he (or Vecna, Tiamat etc.) were wounded from battling another god, or the PCs had an artifact good for that sort of thing (like the Dragonlance vs. Takhisis), sure... Minor gods should be fair game for high-level-but-still-mortal PCs, but despite the name, Lesser Deities are pretty far up in the hierarchy - 3rd highest of 6 immortal ranks.

As I mentioned in the previous post, there is a slight disparity because PCs are technically Elite versions of their own level. Which means if a PC is Level 42 and Orcus is Level 42 (adjusted from a Level 33 Solo) that the PC will be twice as powerful because they are 'special'.

I contemplated making all deities 'special' too, but it didn't gel with the official rules, and it just basically messed everything up.

And I guess it seems to me there should be a pretty wide gap between Greater Deity and Elder One, and between First One and Demiurge. Immortals are still tightly linked to mortal reality, and Sidereals aren't; Sidereals are still finite beings, and Eternals are beginning not to be. The three Stages of Demiurge in 3.5e Ascension replicate this very well, to me - there's a huge gulf between a First One and a fully-powered (Stage III) Demiurge, much less a Time Lord. I don't think this will work in 4e though, if Eternals are just one tier.

Just because something was one way in 3E, doesn't mean it must be the same way in 4E.

Why not make Demiurges one tier (61-70), and Time/High Lords another (71-80)?

Then they would become irrelevant. Above Level 60 is unsupportable (IMHO). That means at best you might get away with Level 66 as a threat, and I want people to fight Time Lords in this edition.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

I sort of see them more as interchangeable, though I am not sure which I'll be adhering to for the tables.

OK, makes sense.

As I mentioned in the previous post, there is a slight disparity because PCs are technically Elite versions of their own level.

OK, cool.

Above Level 60 is unsupportable (IMHO).

Simply because there's not enough time or space to write that many tiers with that many powers, or does the system actually break down?

and I want people to fight Time Lords in this edition.

Well, sure.

But there won't be support for playing Time Lords? Not that it was very mechanically workable even in 3e...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Khisanth mate!

Simply because there's not enough time or space to write that many tiers with that many powers, or does the system actually break down?

A) There isn't enough time.
B) There isn't enough impetus.
C) There isn't enough imagination...by that I mean I cannot even fathom how someone would create 100+ monsters at that level of power which were not simply complete rip offs of existing monsters 'powered up'. Theres just no framework to support it. The higher in power the more diversity tapers to a point...that point being the Supreme Being.

Even the Sidereal Tier will be a struggle to develop, though I think I have just about enough ideas to give campaigns/players a good send off.

But there won't be support for playing Time Lords? Not that it was very mechanically workable even in 3e...

Its not something I'm going to dwell upon until I have everything else finished which will likely be never since theres a potential 60 books before it.

Playing Time Lords to me seems a bit redundant. You raised a good point recently about Demigods fighting and defeating Sidereals. PCs are capable of fighting monsters an effective 15 levels above themselves (modified by the solo monster rules). That means a party of Time Lords would be potentially battling foes more powerful than the Supreme Being (under the current designations).

I don't want to poo-poo the idea that an Eternal Tier is possible, I'm just saying it isn't practical or warranted enough, therefore I cannot advocate devoting time or allocating resources to it.