4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[dante58701]

Terrifying? Hardly, I'd laugh at it's Magic The Gather/Miniatures style abilities and waste in one round with a first level rogue using his environment and his wits.

This so-called "Pit Fiend" is about as useless as a flaming monkey.

 

[Khuxan]

Terrifying? Hardly, I'd laugh at it's Magic The Gather/Miniatures style abilities and waste in one round with a first level rogue using his environment and his wits.

How? How could a rogue even hit that AC? How could a rogue escape immediate death from the flame aura? How can it trap a creature that can teleport and summon friends?

EDIT: And what is so offensive about a hero beating a monster through wits and the environment? That's what adventures are made of.

This so-called "Pit Fiend" is about as useless as a flaming monkey.

What abilities is it missing? Is the difference between "terrifying 3.5 devil lord" and "flaming monkey" only the ability to whack someone in the face with your wing?

 

[mostlyharmless]

'EVERYTHING' is wrong with the 4e pit fiend?

The 4e pit fiend loses:
a) the ability to slap people with its wings, bite them and claw them. Instead, it can attack with a flaming mace and tail sting - even if it has moved this round.

Sooo...pit fiends can't use their hands anymore? Or their teeth? I'd hate to be a pit fiend without a mace then, especially if my tail were cut off.

e) Immunity to fire and poison. Instead, it has resistance to fire and poison.

Last time I checked it was more than a bit fiery in hell, yes? What is the point of just making it resistant? Especially since it can produce a fiery aura now. o.0

c) The ability to blow up crippled or useless minions.

Why would it bother? Especially in the middle of combat? Doesn't it have more to worry about?

It doesn't have a pet mohrg, it commands the soldiers of Hell. It doesn't tumble around the battlefield, it teleports.

Where are you getting this pet mohrg thing from?

 

[dante58701]

Khuxan, you obviously don't even see how absurd your statements are so there is no point in even explaining it to you.

 

[dante58701]

'EVERYTHING' is wrong with the 4e pit fiend?

The 4e pit fiend loses:
a) the ability to slap people with its wings, bite them and claw them. Instead, it can attack with a flaming mace and tail sting - even if it has moved this round.
b) To grab and constrict people with its tail
d) DR. Instead, it has many more hit points.
e) Immunity to fire and poison. Instead, it has resistance to fire and poison.
f) Resistance to acid and cold. Instead, it has many more hit points.
g) Regeneration. Instead, it has many more hit points.
h) Spell resistance. Instead, it has higher saves and defences.
i) Disease. Instead, its poison lasts for more than one round.
j) Spell-like abilities.

The pit fiend gains:
a) A fiery aura.
b) Far more powerful summoned minions.
c) The ability to blow up crippled or useless minions.
d) The ability to severely weaken his foe's defences.
e) To teleport his allies to his side.
f) To teleport as a move action.
g) More hit points, higher defences and AC.

Why is this so offensive to you? The pit fiend I imagine calls upon fear and flame, poison and minions to crush its foes. It doesn't cast fireball, it is surrounded by fire! It doesn't cast dispel magic, it simply laughs off many spells. It doesn't have a disease that takes 2 1/2 days to take effect, it has a poison that acts immediately. It doesn't have a pet mohrg, it commands the soldiers of Hell. It doesn't tumble around the battlefield, it teleports.

EDIT: I can imagine mining the 3.5 pit fiend for ideas for alternative pit fiend abilities - calling down meteors and stunning with a single word - but the 4e pit fiend is a terrifying foe on its own.

Ok

a. YAY!!! MY VERY OWN MACE!!! I'M SO HAPPY!!! ...first off...PIT FIENDS don't need a mace to pulverize their enemies, and certainly not one so pathetically underpowered. Their claws, bite, wings, and constricting tail would have been far more devastating. Appropriately so considering they are LORDS OF HELL!!! Not BOYSCOUTS FROM EARTH!!! Plus...they can already move and attack in the same round, it's called charging and bullrushing. This wimpy little mace and unintelligently designed tail sting (a rip off of 3.5 imps) is just stupid. The sting might have been ok, if and only if, they had allowed it as an alternative attack instead of a pathetic waste of an attack.

b. Overinflated hit points is absolutely pointless. Damage Reduction made it so you couldn't even scratch them. Now any idiot with a weapon can harm them.

c. THEY ARE BORN OF THE FIRES OF HELL IN THE PIT OF PHLEGETHOS!!! THEY SHOULD BE IMPERVIOUS TO FIRE. This resistance to fire crap is just that, crap. As for the all around resistance, those are a result of the HARSH nature of HELL. HELL is not just some jaunty little place you can go have a picnic in. IT IS HELL!!! A NIGHTMARE!!! HORROR!!! Not, "Hey Bob, theres a pit tard, lets go get some more experience points.

d. Regeneration was a GREAT THING...it means...oh yeah, limbs grow back after being hacked off. Not to mention virtual indestructibility except, to Holy weapons.

e. Spell Resistance...also a must, I don't think they could survive without it in a highly evolved magic infused dimension with nightmarish horrors.

f. Disease, how can you not realize it's true importance?!?!?! PIT FIENDS SPREAD DISEASES. AS IN PLAGUES!!! TO MAKE PEOPLE SUFFER HORRIBLY!!! Pit Fiends are not just about HACKING AND SLASHING, they are about torture and abuse!!! My mind is boggled when people don't get this.

g. SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES...PIT FIENDS ARE MAGICAL...THEY NEED THESE ABILITIES TO KEEP MINIONS IN LINE AND PLOT HORROR!!! Do they need millions of them, no...but about 10-15 is a better idea than ZERO!!!

h. Fiery Auras are more of a detriment than a boon, "YAY, I BURNED DOWN THE BUILDING AROUND ME WHEN I WAS SUMMONED BY A MORTAL AND NOW THEY ARE DEAD AND I HAVE TO GO BACK TO HELL WITHOUT MAKING MY BARGAIN FOR THEIR SOUL!!!-Retarded Fat Imp"

i. Their minions are NOT far more powerful. They have inflated Hit Points. Inflated Hit Points does not mean more powerful. Anyone with VAMPIRIC TOUCH can inflate their hit points.

j. They summon their minions to their side already, by summoning them in the first place.

k. Wasting time destroying minions in combat is senseless, they might as well slit their own throats and call it a day.

l. Teleporting as a move action? How about a Free Action instead...Quicken Spell-Like Ability...it's far more effective.

And the appearance if the new Pit Imp is just pathetic, it looks like a bad drawing of Orcus.

I guess I'm just frustrated that most people these days have no understanding of plotlines or tactics. Dungeons & Dragons was never intended to be Hack'n'Slash. That's what miniature games are for.

Unfortunately Dungeons & Dragons has officially died with 3.5. No more challenging monsters, no more tactics, no more strategies. Just stupid monsters with little to no real abilities and a couple of "COOL LOOKING" special effects, which are so lame in combat as to be nearly useless, if not outright hindering.

 

[mostlyharmless]

Unfortunately Dungeons & Dragons has officially died with 3.5. No more challenging monsters, no more tactics, no more strategies. Just stupid monsters with little to no real abilities and a couple of "COOL LOOKING" special effects, which are so lame in combat as to be nearly useless, if not outright hindering.

And therein lies the problem with trying to appeal to people who are used to instant gratification.

 

[Khuxan]

Sooo...pit fiends can't use their hands anymore? Or their teeth? I'd hate to be a pit fiend without a mace then, especially if my tail were cut off.

I imagine a pit fiend could use an unarmed strike just like a human. But I agree, it would be nice to know what damage its claws did if - say - the pit fiend was disarmed or its mace sundered.

Last time I checked it was more than a bit fiery in hell, yes? What is the point of just making it resistant? Especially since it can produce a fiery aura now. o.0

In 3E, the fourth layer of Hell, Phlegethos, does 3d10 points of fire damage each round - which means the pit fiend can never be damaged by the fires of Hell. It seems reasonable that something hotter than Hell - like the interior of a star - could do enough damage to harm a pit fiend.

Why would it bother? Especially in the middle of combat? Doesn't it have more to worry about?

The explosion damages other nearby creatures, so the minions can be used as bombs.

Where are you getting this pet mohrg thing from?

The create undead spell-like ability. The point I was making is there are more relevant abilities a pit fiend can and should have than create undead.

a. YAY!!! MY VERY OWN MACE!!! I'M SO HAPPY!!! ...first off...PIT FIENDS don't need a mace to pulverize their enemies, and certainly not one so pathetically underpowered. Their claws, bite, wings, and constricting tail would have been far more devastating. Appropriately so considering they are LORDS OF HELL!!! Not BOYSCOUTS FROM EARTH!!!

2 claws, a bite, 2 wings and a tail attack meant a lot of dice rolling in one round. Iterative attacks have been removed for characters, so it makes sense that pit fiends should also lose some attacks. I agree a bite or a claw would be a nice addition for an individual pit fiend, but a mace would be at least as devastating.

This wimpy little mace and unintelligently designed tail sting (a rip off of 3.5 imps) is just stupid. The sting might have been ok, if and only if, they had allowed it as an alternative attack instead of a pathetic waste of an attack.

I don't understand what you mean by an "alternative attack", but the sting is not a waste of an attack because you can attack with both mace and sting as a standard action.

b. Overinflated hit points is absolutely pointless. Damage Reduction made it so you couldn't even scratch them. Now any idiot with a weapon can harm them.

Any idiot with a weapon who can a) hit AC 44 with a -2 attack penalty and b) withstand the fire damage. Even then, the damage will be laughable for a creature with 350 hit points.

c. THEY ARE BORN OF THE FIRES OF HELL IN THE PIT OF PHLEGETHOS!!! THEY SHOULD BE IMPERVIOUS TO FIRE. This resistance to fire crap is just that, crap. As for the all around resistance, those are a result of the HARSH nature of HELL. HELL is not just some jaunty little place you can go have a picnic in. IT IS HELL!!! A NIGHTMARE!!! HORROR!!! Not, "Hey Bob, theres a pit tard, lets go get some more experience points.

The Pit of Phlegethos does 3d10 damage per round in 3e, possibly less in 4e. The pit fiend has fire resistance 30, meaning it is impervious to the fires of Hell.

d. Regeneration was a GREAT THING...it means...oh yeah, limbs grow back after being hacked off. Not to mention virtual indestructibility except, to Holy weapons.

There are no rules for limbs being hacked off, so being able to grow them back really doesn't matter. Plus, it doesn't allow for the cool flavour of a pit fiend with a vendetta against the paladin who lopped off his arm or plucked out his eye.

e. Spell Resistance...also a must, I don't think they could survive without it in a highly evolved magic infused dimension with nightmarish horrors.

They have high enough defences and good enough saving throws to be able to resist said "nightmarish horrors".

f. Disease, how can you not realize it's true importance?!?!?! PIT FIENDS SPREAD DISEASES. AS IN PLAGUES!!! TO MAKE PEOPLE SUFFER HORRIBLY!!! Pit Fiends are not just about HACKING AND SLASHING, they are about torture and abuse!!! My mind is boggled when people don't get this.

Devil chills are not a plague. They do not spread from victim to victim. Also, what kind of character CAN survive the "devastating" power of a pit fiend's attacks but not make a DC 14 Fortitude save? Especially since a 20th-level character will have no trouble finding a remove disease spell or just laughing off 1d4 Strength damage.

g. SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES...PIT FIENDS ARE MAGICAL...THEY NEED THESE ABILITIES TO KEEP MINIONS IN LINE AND PLOT HORROR!!! Do they need millions of them, no...but about 10-15 is a better idea than ZERO!!!

A pit fiend is cloaked in flames, commands the legions of Hell, has devastating natural attacks and can poison people, not to mention is nigh impervious to damage. That is surely enough to "keep minions in line". As for "plotting horror", 4E gives the DM the power to cook up whatever rituals allow a pit fiend to plot horror.

h. Fiery Auras are more of a detriment than a boon, "YAY, I BURNED DOWN THE BUILDING AROUND ME WHEN I WAS SUMMONED BY A MORTAL AND NOW THEY ARE DEAD AND I HAVE TO GO BACK TO HELL WITHOUT MAKING MY BARGAIN FOR THEIR SOUL!!!-Retarded Fat Imp"

Summoning a pit fiend should require something more than a straw hut. Also, the aura doesn't affect allies. Also, the aura doesn't affect the terrain.

i. Their minions are NOT far more powerful. They have inflated Hit Points. Inflated Hit Points does not mean more powerful. Anyone with VAMPIRIC TOUCH can inflate their hit points.

Having more hit points does indeed mean you are more powerful than if you have fewer hit points.

j. They summon their minions to their side already, by summoning them in the first place.

I don't understand.

k. Wasting time destroying minions in combat is senseless, they might as well slit their own throats and call it a day.

The minions explode, causing damage to nearby enemies. They can be destroyed when they near death - so it is a benefit.

l. Teleporting as a move action? How about a Free Action instead...Quicken Spell-Like Ability...it's far more effective.

It sure would be, if it were possible to Quicken greater teleport, which it is not.

And the appearance if the new Pit Imp is just pathetic, it looks like a bad drawing of Orcus.

I'm not impressed by it, but it's just a sketch and some bad sketches turn out to be very good pictures.

 

[dante58701]

Go back, study 1st Edition in DEPTH, play Dungeons & Dragons, and then get back to me on this. It's obvious ur a newb and have no idea what you are talking about. That is of course forgivable, but ultimately disappointing.

If new gamers who have no idea what Dungeons & Dragons is about are playing 4.0, then more power to them, but 4.0 is NOT, nor will it ever be Dungeons & Dragons. It is nothing more than a Hack'N'Slash game that is the bastard progeny of Wizards of the Coast.

 

[mostlyharmless]

I imagine a pit fiend could use an unarmed strike just like a human. But I agree, it would be nice to know what damage its claws did if - say - the pit fiend was disarmed or its mace sundered.

Especially since there is that whole Pit Fiend Frenzy thing, which I'm assuming can be used while said fiend is unarmed, and which I'm also not too keen on.

In 3E, the fourth layer of Hell, Phlegethos, does 3d10 points of fire damage each round - which means the pit fiend can never be damaged by the fires of Hell. It seems reasonable that something hotter than Hell - like the interior of a star - could do enough damage to harm a pit fiend.

That brings about another question though, pit fiends do get around in all the layers of the Hells, doing their masters bidding, visiting, picking up fiendish groceries, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but not all of the layers have the same temp, yes?

The explosion damages other nearby creatures, so the minions can be used as bombs.

Reminds me a bit much of the Explodeysheep from Warcraft. Besides, isn't that what spells are for?

The create undead spell-like ability. The point I was making is there are more relevant abilities a pit fiend can and should have than create undead.

Relevant how? Creating undead is usually considered an evil act, and we are talking about creatures of hell.

2 claws, a bite, 2 wings and a tail attack meant a lot of dice rolling in one round. Iterative attacks have been removed for characters, so it makes sense that pit fiends should also lose some attacks. I agree a bite or a claw would be a nice addition for an individual pit fiend, but a mace would be at least as devastating.

I'm not quite understanding the complaints about dice rolling, is it really that big of a deal? And again, we don't have the stats for the bite or claw for 4th edition so we have no way of comparing them to the mace. Besides, we're talking about bludgeoning vs bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, separate critters they are. Talk like Yoda I will.

Summoning a pit fiend should require something more than a straw hut. Also, the aura doesn't affect allies. Also, the aura doesn't affect the terrain.

It chooses who to burn with it's aura? Hope an ally doesn't surprise it in the shower.

Having more hit points does indeed mean you are more powerful than if you have fewer hit points.

Depends on your definition of power. Who would you be more afraid of, the frail wizard with an enviable arsenal or the tough farm boy with the pitchfork?

Okay, it's late and I am tired. I'll be back later.

 

[Khuxan]

Especially since there is that whole Pit Fiend Frenzy thing, which I'm assuming can be used while said fiend is unarmed, and which I'm also not too keen on.

It cannot be used while unarmed. I am curious, though - why are you not too keen on it?

That brings about another question though, pit fiends do get around in all the layers of the Hells, doing their masters bidding, visiting, picking up fiendish groceries, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but not all of the layers have the same temp, yes?

To the best of my knowledge, Phlegethos is the hottest plane of Hell. Now, there are places in Phelegethos which are hot enough to damage a pit fiend - any pool of lava, for example - but I think it's reasonable enough that if a pit fiend goes swimming in lava it should die (no save!).

Reminds me a bit much of the Explodeysheep from Warcraft. Besides, isn't that what spells are for?

I, personally, find it incredibly devilish to sacrifice your own minions - that strikes me as the kind of thing any evil mastermind does.

Relevant how? Creating undead is usually considered an evil act, and we are talking about creatures of hell.

But it is an ability that will probably never be used in combat, and that doesn't fit the flavour of the pit fiend as a master of devils. I would prefer him/her to command devils - as he/she does in 3e and 4e.

I'm not quite understanding the complaints about dice rolling, is it really that big of a deal? And again, we don't have the stats for the bite or claw for 4th edition so we have no way of comparing them to the mace. Besides, we're talking about bludgeoning vs bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, separate critters they are. Talk like Yoda I will.

The 3e pit fiend alone can roll up to 16 dice on a full attack. That does take up a lot of time at the table.
When I said a mace was more devastating than a claw, I was assuming that was the case because otherwise the pit fiend would fight with its claws not its weapon.

It chooses who to burn with it's aura? Hope an ally doesn't surprise it in the shower.

I wonder if the pit fiend can turn its aura off. Hopefully 4e will allow that.

Depends on your definition of power. Who would you be more afraid of, the frail wizard with an enviable arsenal or the tough farm boy with the pitchfork?

True, but Dante was claiming that extra hit points were meaningless. In fact, they're not - the frail wizard is even more powerful if he had a load of hit points along with his enviable arsenal.