4th Edition made a great Paladin...

[Celtavian]

re

Yes. Sorry, I was forgetting myself. The Templars arose from the Crusaders (though the Templars still became the equivellent to the mafia, offering "protection" and insurance, sometimes being the very ones doing the robbing on the road) when the Crusaders no longer had a Crusade. So yes, I was speaking of the earliest form, the Crusaders.

The Crusades is a huge piece of history you are oversimplifying. The French Crusaders who held the Holy Land for quite some time mixed freely with the Muslims, even married Muslim women. And some even converted.

It's one thing to war against a group of people, but another thing once you win. Alot of history in that region of the world. Interesting history. Don't believe too much of the negative hype you read because it suits a viewpoint you hold. There are quite a few amazing stories of co-existence between the Muslims and the Christians that didn't involve mass murdering one another.

It's a great read if you ever want research The Crusades and Outremer. It will give you a much better idea of what it was like to be driven to reclaim a land that three religions and the peoples of each consider holy.

 

[Andor]

Back on topic btw, looking at the Paladin vs the Cleric, I'm not sure what the Paladin really has in his favor.

The Pally gets better defenses, but the Cleric has better healing so that's kind of a wash. And the Cleric can always spend a couple of feats to get better armour. The Cleric also has less MAD since he could basically dump CHR and not care but the Pally kind of needs wisdom.

Powers wise the Cleric pretty much kicks the Paladins butt, although the Palladin does get the one ranged-sight power in the PHB. (Did we really need an entire category for one power?) Furthermore the Cleric PrCs PPs kick the Palladin PPs all hollow. Who wouldn't want Angelic Avenger or Radiant Servant over Astral Weapon or Justiciar?

 

[Schmoe]

I've got to say, I HAVE played a Paladin, and I liked him a lot...

My only gripe is that it recommends giving a high STR or CHA first, then the other, then WIS. Well... after looking at it, I'd choose one of those two as the first and stick with the powers that go with it, and take WIS second, since it can boost the others, and the one you didn't choose as the 3rd...

I can't see how a Paladin would be very effective if he prioritized STR->WIS->CHA. Almost all of the big-ticket Paladin abilities are CHA-based. STR provides some variety, and WIS helps to augment some STR and CHA abilities, but without the Charisma, a paladin will feel very limited.

 

[Corjay]

The Crusades is a huge piece of history you are oversimplifying. The French Crusaders who held the Holy Land for quite some time mixed freely with the Muslims, even married Muslim women. And some even converted.

It's one thing to war against a group of people, but another thing once you win. Alot of history in that region of the world. Interesting history. Don't believe too much of the negative hype you read because it suits a viewpoint you hold. There are quite a few amazing stories of co-existence between the Muslims and the Christians that didn't involve mass murdering one another.

It's a great read if you ever want research The Crusades and Outremer. It will give you a much better idea of what it was like to be driven to reclaim a land that three religions and the peoples of each consider holy.

I take it you found something that supports my view, but at the same time, you're certainly right. While I painted the majority as cruel, perhaps it was actually a minority, but my point still holds that you don't have to be "good" to be in the place of a holy warrior, as the holy warrior has absolution.

 

[Mercule]

Back on topic btw, looking at the Paladin vs the Cleric, I'm not sure what the Paladin really has in his favor.

Smiting. Paladins get to smite.

In 3e, my wife -- who normally won't touch casters -- played a dwarven cleric on a whim. She quite enjoyed it, but mainly because she found the smiting and personal buff clerical spells and kept the narrow focus. Not much healing from her.

In 4e, I think I'll recommend she play a paladin so she can get her smite on. It just sounds cooler than the fighter.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I take it you found something that supports my view, but at the same time, you're certainly right. While I painted the majority as cruel, perhaps it was actually a minority, but my point still holds that you don't have to be "good" to be in the place of a holy warrior, as the holy warrior has absolution.

There are quite a few stories about corruption within the Templars or Crusaders, and vice versa. That is the way humanity is.

You don't have to be "good" in the real world. But DnD fantasy isn't the real world.

In a DnD world the gods are indisputably real and actively give power. If you breach their code of conduct, you will be punished.

That is gigantic problem with using real world history as an analogue for a DnD world. In the real world arguments as to the truth of the existence of gods and religious philosophies is open-ended.

In a DnD world, there is no argument. You can't walk up to the dwarf paladin and say "Prove Moradin exists" and he'll debate you. He'll just channel some divine power and show you. In a DnD world the ambiguity of religion does not exist. There are very real divine powers that give real power that if there were scientists about could do nothing but come away and say "Moradin exists".

So with that in mind, I like idealized versions of gods that have defined philosophies and grant power that fits with their philosophy and area of influence. That's just a peresonal preference on my part. I have no idea what percentage of players prefer well-developed religions and deities. I know most of the guys I play with could care less. There much more focused on what their individual characters can do. I've almost always been the one more focused on the fluff and roleplaying.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I played the Paladin in some mock combats. He is a beast. His durability is insane. I feel that my assessment of the Paladin as the most durable character class in 4th edition is accurate. They are hard to kill and can dish a decent amount of damage.

Now this assessment applies to a paladin focused on charisma, wisdom, and constitution. I do not think a strength based paladin would be as durable as a charisma based paladin.

But I like my paladin. The guy is a beast of a tank that will give us alot of frontline power. I'm looking forward to bringing the pain as my groups defender. I personally think the Paladin will be the number one defender in the game unless they come out with something better down the line.

 

[SSquirrel]

Funny, the Paladin looks like he almost has better healing or at least more powers with healing side effects. I have a L3 cleric for one game and a L9 Paladin I'm about to start playing in my wife's game. Protecting Paladin looks like he'll kick ass, take names and pitch some great heals.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Funny, the Paladin looks like he almost has better healing or at least more powers with healing side effects. I have a L3 cleric for one game and a L9 Paladin I'm about to start playing in my wife's game. Protecting Paladin looks like he'll kick ass, take names and pitch some great heals.

Lay on Hands is nasty, especially if you enhance it with feats. Since you get a ton of healing surges, you can keep yourself and others up a long, long time.

I was cycling Bolstering Strike with Enfeebling Strike. I would hit with Bolstering Strike, boost my hit points, and if the enemy missed his next attack, I would use Enfeebling Strike to lower his attack chance. It worked pretty well.

I did notice quite a few healing abilities in the Paladin power tree. Not sure how they compare to the cleric who seems like the supreme healer, but I'm hoping enough that I'll be able help keep the group alive. We're playing without a cleric right now. The game designers have claimed we could run without a cleric in our party and I want to see how true that is. So we are only have a warlord and paladin for healing. I hope we can stay alive because my friend says Shadowfell Keep is a rough adventure. I've read some things on here that concern me. We'll see how it goes. I just know my Paladin is tough, and I hope the overall synergy is such that we can survive the tough encounters without cleric healing.

 

[SSquirrel]

I did notice quite a few healing abilities in the Paladin power tree. Not sure how they compare to the cleric who seems like the supreme healer, but I'm hoping enough that I'll be able help keep the group alive. We're playing without a cleric right now. The game designers have claimed we could run without a cleric in our party and I want to see how true that is. So we are only have a warlord and paladin for healing. I hope we can stay alive because my friend says Shadowfell Keep is a rough adventure. I've read some things on here that concern me. We'll see how it goes. I just know my Paladin is tough, and I hope the overall synergy is such that we can survive the tough encounters without cleric healing.

Warlord+Paladin should be plenty of healing. Once we bring our extra 2 characters in to make a party of 5, we'll have both a Cleric and a Paladin. The Paladin is a strong enough hybrid healer that I wonder if he couldn't handle sole healing duties.