4th Edition made a great Paladin...

[ppaladin123]

I love paladins (big surprise given my handle, no?) and I am happy with the love they have received in 4th edition. That said, they are extremely MAD (multiple ability dependent), much more so than the other classes. That could make them difficult for newbies to play. When you take into account feat requirements (weapon mastery, heavy blade opportunity, etc.), secondary wisdom effects, constitution, and the divine challenge feature, you end up with plenty of stats to balance even if you focus only on strength or charisma powers. Intelligence is the only "dump stat."

 

[Celtavian]

re

I love paladins (big surprise given my handle, no?) and I am happy with the love they have received in 4th edition. That said, they are extremely MAD (multiple ability dependent), much more so than the other classes. That could make them difficult for newbies to play. When you take into account feat requirements (weapon mastery, heavy blade opportunity, etc.), secondary wisdom effects, constitution, and the divine challenge feature, you end up with plenty of stats to balance even if you focus only on strength or charisma powers. Intelligence is the only "dump stat."

You're right. I'm playing one right now. If I had to use the standard ability generation method used in the 4E PHB, I don't think I would like the Paladin very much. And they are pretty light on the good Str based powers for a Paladin. For encounter and daily powers Charisma seems much better than strength.

 

[Kzach]

And what is this none-sense about not being able to chose a daily, just because you only have ranged choices? Let me ask you - do you start every combat next to the monsters? If the answer is not yes, then the paladin has plenty of use of a ranged power or 2 (hell, maybe even 3 or 4).

Stop apologising for WotC's bad design decisions.

The paladin is a melee class with a good quarter of his powers being ranged.

The paladin requires decent Constitution to fulfil his role but has to split his ability points between three other stats.

At every step of designing a paladin character, you have to make compromising choices which gimp the character. It requires you to be a jack-of-all-trades and master of none.

It is badly designed, period.

 

[FireLance]

Actually, I don't think there's anything wrong with the paladin that a few more power choices won't fix, and new powers are pretty easy to come by. Once that happens, paladin characters can safely dump either Strength or Charisma.

I will admit, though, that for my own paladin character, I went with relatively balanced stats in order to be reasonably effective at a variety of attacks, but selected encounter abilities that had the weapon keyword (to gain the weapon bonus to attacks) and targeted non-AC defences (which are usually lower), and became an elf to be even more sure of hitting when I want to with elven accuracy (and further improved with Elven Precision). Statistics follow in the SBLOCK:
[SBLOCK]Rolen Brightsun
Male Elf Paladin
Level 4

Str 14
Con 13
Dex 14
Int 10
Wis 16 (after L4 stat increase)
Cha 16 (after L4 stat increase)

AC 23
Fort 16
Ref 18
Will 17
Init +4
Spd 6 squares

HP 46; Bloodied 23
Healing surge value 11; 11 healing surges/day

Basic Attacks

Bastard Sword +1 (standard; at-will) * Weapon
+8 vs. AC; 1d10 + 3 damage​

At-Will Attacks

Bolstering Strike (standard; at-will) * Divine, Weapon
+9 vs. AC; 1d10 + 4 damage and Rolen gains 3 temporary hit points.

Holy Strike (standard; at-will) * Divine, Radiant, Weapon
+8 vs. AC; 1d10 + 3 radiant damage, or 1d10 + 6 radiant damage if the target is marked.

Divine Challenge (minor; at-will)

Lay on Hands (minor; at-will, 3/day)​

Encounter Abilities

Piercing Smite (standard; encounter) * Divine, Weapon
+8 vs. Reflex; 2d10 + 3 damage, and the target and 3 enemies adjacent to Rolen are marked until the end of his next turn.

Invigorating smite (standard; encounter) * Divine, Weapon
+9 vs. Will; 2d10 + 4 damage, and if Rolen is bloodied, he regains 8 hit points. Bloodied allies within 5 squares also regain 8 hit points.

Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle or Divine Strength (minor; encounter)

Elven Accuracy (free; encounter)​

Daily Ability

Paladin's Judgment (standard; daily) * Divine, Healing, Weapon
+8 vs. AC; 3d10 + 3 damage.
Effect: One ally within 5 squares of Rolen can spend a healing surge.​

Feats: Elven Precision, Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Warrior of the Wild

Equipment: plate armor +1, heavy shield, amulet +1, bastard sword +1[/SBLOCK]Actually, now that I think about it, paladins do get access to quite a number of weapon keyword attacks that target a non-AC defence. From my experience, this seems to be good enough to keep paladins with balanced ability scores viable.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm a little disapointed in all the split-primary classes (Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, and, well, ranger not so much). While it's theoretically possible to invest in both primaries and raise them both every level, thus being able to have a good power selection, the impulse to choose one or the other is understandibly strong. Doing so gives you a restricted character. It's especially evident with Cleric and Paladin. If you go heavy into STR and don't invest much in the other primary, you have few power choices. If you go the other way, your poor basic attacks hurt your versatility in combat, especially melee.

I guess I notice this because I like playing the warlord who hands out free basic melee attacks - and I notice the WIS Cleric and CHA paladin just don't benefit.

The Warlock has the obvious power-selection problem, too, ameliorated somewhat by the existance of the Star pact, which adds some choices to it's more stat-specialized cousins.

The ranger mostly gets away from the problems, though. An archer-ranger just ignores melee, so doesn't worry about not being able to make a decent OA or charge. The TWF ranger hurts a little for AC, but is otherwise OK. Both benefit because so many ranger powers are split-stat to match the class: DEX for ranged, STR for melee. So, the ranger has some decent variety of power choices, and the STR-focused ranger doesn't find itself lacking choice like the STR Cleric or Paladin.


Split-secondary classes, OTOH, seem to work fine. You can invest in two secondaries if you want the versatility and expanded power choices. Even the Warlock and Rogue, which limit the value of one of your secondary stats aren't too bad in restricting your choices - even the 'gimped' verisions of thier powers are occassionally viable.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Actually, now that I think about it, paladins do get access to quite a number of weapon keyword attacks that target a non-AC defence. From my experience, this seems to be good enough to keep paladins with balanced ability scores viable.

That's an interesting observation. I wonder how much this figured into balancing the classes... I've always just thought about how this effects the balances between individual powers, not the entire set of powers.

 

[Styracosaurus]

I do not see how the paladin is gimped.
I do see that you should either be Strength and Wisdom or Charisma and Wisdom. Definitely not Str, Wis AND Cha or else you end up spreading yourself too thin.

Intelligence and Dexterity are throw away abilities. You'll have a poor Reflex, but you're gonna have an Achilles heel for any character. That leaves only four, so you could have 14 (or greater) in all four of the remaining abilities with just the standard point buy.

Ranged attacks with a range of 5 mean that you are in melee threat range and so you are still a melee character. Consider if you have an action point or two. Then for a round or two you can spread out the pain more efficiently. It is punishing for an enemy to purposefully avoid standing near you as you have the ability to still strike them. The short range attack also makes you more effective in a pursuit (with you wearing heavy armor).

 

[glass]

lay on hands as a minor action

Is it? Damn, that would have kept my paladin alive the other night!


glass.

 

[SSquirrel]

Thank goodness I don't play RPGA games so I'm not limited to using the point buy included in the book. If I was limited to that as my only option tehre are several classes I would enjoy less. As it is, in our games, the Paladin is just dandy. The bonuses that come from Wisdom are more niceities than must haves. Even having just a +1 or +2 on those will be cool.

 

[Gothmog]

Stop apologising for WotC's bad design decisions.

The paladin is a melee class with a good quarter of his powers being ranged.

The paladin requires decent Constitution to fulfil his role but has to split his ability points between three other stats.

At every step of designing a paladin character, you have to make compromising choices which gimp the character. It requires you to be a jack-of-all-trades and master of none.

It is badly designed, period.

Actually, its 14 out of 80 powers that are ranged, or 17.5% of them. I didn't count the ones that were close burst, since they don't provoke OAs.

I've played a human paladin through 6 levels so far, and I have to say, I've found your assessments to be completely wrong. My stats are (the DM used 25 point buy):

Str 18 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 16

HP 57 AC 24 (22 w/o shield) Fort 20 Reflex 18 Will 19

Feats: Raven Queen's Blessing, WF: Longsword, Powerful Charge, Improved Initiative, Action Surge, Human Perseverance

Powers:
At Will: Valiant Strike +11 vs AC (+1 per surrounding enemy), d8+5 (this one is mandatory for a paladin- you basically don't miss using it)
Holy Strike +11 vs AC, d8+5
Bolstering Strike +10 vs AC, d8+5

Encounter: Fearsome Strike +10 vs AC, 2d8+5
Staggering Smite +11 vs AC, 2d8+5

Daily: On Pain of Death +7 vs Will, 3d8+4
Sign of Vulnerability +7 vs Will, 3d8+4 and vulnerable 5 radiant for rest of encounter

Utility: Sacred Circle
Wrath of the Gods (this one is AWESOME)

Dwarven Plate +1, +1 Longsword, +1 Amulet of Health, +1 Holy Symbol, Heavy Shield

Your main stats don't have to be 18s for you to be effective. My paladin soaks up a lot of damage even with the mediocre Con because his AC and defenses are high. Most of my encounter and daily powers are melee, with the exception of On Pain of Death and Sign of Vulnerability, and I use them pretty often. Provoking AOs isn't really a concern for me, because I can always shift out of melee, use the ranged power, and be right back in the thick of it again easily next round. Plus, I can use Divine Challenge on the guy I used the ranged power on, or a different target I will attack next round, increasing my "stickiness". Being the defender, I opted not to go for a two-handed weapon in preference of defense, but I still do good damage, and I hit very often.

Yes, there is more of an attribute spread than most of the other classes, but that doesn't mean the class is badly designed. I haven't found I've been gimped at all- if anything, the paladin seems a little too good in some aspects (hard to hit and decent damage dealer), and I have a good range of powers for a variety of situations. Plus, since we have a Warlord in the group, and I have Action Surge, I usually use my Daily powers with the action point, giving me an additional +5 to the attack roll! Weak or gimped? Hardly. This is the first time I've EVER enjoyed playing a paladin, because they are actually playable and well-designed now, rather than being the extreme one-trick ponies they used to be.