4th Edition made a great Paladin...

[jasperwinkel]

Build options

Build options: About str vs wis vs cha.
This is a choice that bothered me greatly while building my dragonborn paladin. The thing is that if you want to play your role as defender well, you want to mark more than one opponent each turn. My original concept was indeed to build Cha/Wis, but then I looked more closely at the powers. There's several encounter abilities that allow your paladin to mark additional targets. However, the first three of them are strength based (Piercing smite (encounter 1), acring smite (encounter 3), Radiant charge or whirlwind smite (encounter 13). The ones based on charisma are only available very late in the game (Hand of the gods (encounter 17), To the nine hells with you (daily 25), Restricting smite (encounter 27)).
Since the whole point of being a Defender is keeping your less durable allies from getting minced, these abilities were a must-have in my opinion. In the end, I went for strength first (18), cha second (16), and wis third (14), with the intention of boosting str and cha twice, and then str and con twice (to get my 13 con up to 17 in time for axe mastery at level 21).


As for taking damage vs the fighter: The paladin may be able to wear plate (Woo Hoo, +1 AC) but that gets lame at level 11 (trade 1 sq move for 1 AC? Nah.) The fighter, however, has many more abilities to replete his hit point pool. Also, the fighter can mark as many opponents as he can attack (and miss!), making it easier to act the defender. (try a dragonborn fighter with enlarged dragon's breath, for instance!)

 

[Kzach]

I think the paladin is the worst designed of all the classes.

In fact, I would even go so far as to say it's not worthy of going into the PHB as it's not refined and ready enough to come out of play-testing.

It's clunky and doesn't perform it's role very well. The fundamental underpinnings of the class require you to spread your stats thinly in a system which is balanced on optimisation.

In every other class, I can focus on one primary stat and one modifier or secondary stat. In the paladin I need either a very high strength or a very high charisma as my primary to ensure I hit with my powers. Except the modifier stat for almost all my powers is Wisdom. This conflicts with the need for Constitution as a defender, especially given how a paladin will be burning healing surges faster than any other class.

And then on top of all of that, they make a Charisma based paladin ineffective in his primary role by dumping him with a plethora of ranged powers. Oh but wait, let's make a Strength-based paladin to fulfil his role as a defender and... oh... wait... we have to give him Charisma 'cause his challenge is based on it... but we have to give him Wisdom 'cause his power modifiers are based on it... but we have to give him Con or he's gonna go down fast and have to rest often from burning healing surges...

So you're either piss-weak, or piss-weak.

Get rid of the Wisdom requirement altogether, replacing it with Charisma and suddenly the paladin becomes a half-decent class. I say half-decent because realistically, the Charisma-based paladin is not a real option as a defender when you're forced to take ranged powers all the time.

 

[Kzach]

Now this assessment applies to a paladin focused on charisma, wisdom, and constitution. I do not think a strength based paladin would be as durable as a charisma based paladin.

So how are you going to effectively defend when you're provoking attacks of opportunity from the multiple opponents you're tanking, every time you use your Charisma-based powers (most of which are ranged)?

 

[Jack99]

So how are you going to effectively defend when you're provoking attacks of opportunity from the multiple opponents you're tanking, every time you use your Charisma-based powers (most of which are ranged)?

You should actually check out the powers that are Charisma-based. You would find that most are in fact not ranged, but instead based on weapon or close burst attacks.

All Level 1 dailies are ranged.
1 level 5 daily is ranged.
1 level 9 daily is ranged.
2 level 15 dailies are ranged.

So, all your encounter powers and at will powers will not be ranged powers. These are the powers that you will be using the most. Now, at level 1, your daily will be a ranged power. At level 5, you have the option of taking a charisma based power that is not ranged. At level 9, you also have that options. At level 15, you must take one again. Still, that means, that at level 20 (didn't check past that), your cha-based paladin has a whole of 2 combat powers that are ranged.

2 powers out of what? 10 combat powers, not to mention the utility ones. I do not think that 20% qualifies as most, no matter where in the world you learned math.

EDIT: there is a level 7 encounter power that is ranged as well, but that one can be gotten around as well. So the numbers still stand.

EDIT 2: Actually since it is only dailies that can't be avoided, it is even better. Considering 3 combats a day, each of 6 rounds (pretty average) that would mean 20 powers fired off (that is included action points). Of those 20 powers used, 2 will be dailies that are ranged, thus 10% of the total.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Evil is not a frame of mind. Unless they're insane, people don't just wake up and think about what they can do to be evil (contrary to much modern entertainment). They do evil things 1) under the misguided belief that they are doing right, or 2) they don't know how to be any other way.

Ah, let's not debate morality and alignment... entire postgraduate courses are dedicated to them in philosophy faculties and when we poor gamers try to emulate those debates, it always ends up in tears

 

[Kzach]

All Level 1 dailies are ranged.
1 level 5 daily is ranged.
1 level 9 daily is ranged.
2 level 15 dailies are ranged.

Let's do a little bit of correction here, since you're misrepresenting the facts.

If you make a Charisma-based pally, you'll want Wisdom to be decent as well since that's the stat that modifies your Charisma-based powers. That leaves enough points to have one more stat half decent and since you're gonna be in the thick of combat, trying to get as many opponents attacking you instead of everyone else, let's give it to Constitution.

That makes Strength a non-entity. Therefore, choosing any Strength-based powers is just retarded.

So, that narrows down your choices, wouldn't you agree?

Now, let's say that you're not an idiot and you don't think that provoking attacks of opportunity from multiple opponents is a great idea (remember, you're Mr. Defender, so you're in amongst all the bad guys TRYING to get hit). So you're not about to go and choose ranged powers, 'cause that would just be DUMB.

That leaves... oooh... let's look at your chart now:

Can't take any level 1 dailies.
Can only choose from 1 level 5 daily.
Can only choose from 2 level 9 dailies.
Can't choose any level 15 dailies!

But you're right, the paladin is well thought out and perfectly balanced.

 

[The Little Raven]

That makes Strength a non-entity. Therefore, choosing any Strength-based powers is just retarded.

Building a Charisma-based paladin without Strength as his secondary ability score is just retarded. Wisdom is nice, but gimping your primary ability scores to add a little more temporary hit points or another use of lay on hands is silly.

Now, let's say that you're not an idiot and you don't think that provoking attacks of opportunity from multiple opponents is a great idea (remember, you're Mr. Defender, so you're in amongst all the bad guys TRYING to get hit). So you're not about to go and choose ranged powers, 'cause that would just be DUMB.

Choosing Charisma, Wisdom, and Constitution as your primary ability scores and ignoring Strength entirely when fully half of the paladin's capabilities depend on it and when both builds point to it as a primary or secondary is dumb.

But you're right, the paladin is well thought out and perfectly balanced.

It is. If you make silly choices, like ignoring Strength completely, you can gimp yourself. It's like gimping Dexterity as a ranger, then complaining that you're only limited to the two-weapon fighting stuff, as it's Strength-based, so the ranger is broken.

 

[Kzach]

Building a Charisma-based paladin without Strength as his secondary ability score is just retarded. Wisdom is nice, but gimping your primary ability scores to add a little more temporary hit points or another use of lay on hands is silly.



Choosing Charisma, Wisdom, and Constitution as your primary ability scores and ignoring Strength entirely when fully half of the paladin's capabilities depend on it and when both builds point to it as a primary or secondary is dumb.



It is. If you make silly choices, like ignoring Strength completely, you can gimp yourself. It's like gimping Dexterity as a ranger, then complaining that you're only limited to the two-weapon fighting stuff, as it's Strength-based, so the ranger is broken.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[The Little Raven]

Thank you for proving my point.

So, your point is that the paladin is broken if you completely ignore what ability scores the class actually favors, as well as the advice given by the class's description?

 

[Jack99]

Let's do a little bit of correction here, since you're misrepresenting the facts.

If you make a Charisma-based pally, you'll want Wisdom to be decent as well since that's the stat that modifies your Charisma-based powers. That leaves enough points to have one more stat half decent and since you're gonna be in the thick of combat, trying to get as many opponents attacking you instead of everyone else, let's give it to Constitution.

That makes Strength a non-entity. Therefore, choosing any Strength-based powers is just retarded.

So, that narrows down your choices, wouldn't you agree?

Now, let's say that you're not an idiot and you don't think that provoking attacks of opportunity from multiple opponents is a great idea (remember, you're Mr. Defender, so you're in amongst all the bad guys TRYING to get hit). So you're not about to go and choose ranged powers, 'cause that would just be DUMB.

That leaves... oooh... let's look at your chart now:

Can't take any level 1 dailies.
Can only choose from 1 level 5 daily.
Can only choose from 2 level 9 dailies.
Can't choose any level 15 dailies!

But you're right, the paladin is well thought out and perfectly balanced.

Sorry, but you seemed to have missed the point of all of this. You said that a charisma build is not viable because most of your powers will be ranged cha-based powers. I demonstrated that you can fill all your power slots with only cha-based powers and have only 2 ranged powers, and thus perform your job as defender quite well. Yes, you won't have a great str for OA attacks, there are ways to get around that problem as well, as I am sure you know.

Sure you have less choices. But that was not the point you made. You said a cha-based paladin couldn't perform his duty as a defender, because he would be drawing OA's. The power list quite clearly shows it is possible to build one with only 2 dailies out of 10 combat powers being ranged. You were wrong.

Now is the build as balanced and flexible as others? Maybe not, but it is pretty darn effective, in my limited experience.

And what is this none-sense about not being able to chose a daily, just because you only have ranged choices? Let me ask you - do you start every combat next to the monsters? If the answer is not yes, then the paladin has plenty of use of a ranged power or 2 (hell, maybe even 3 or 4).

Cheers