4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.

[TerraDave]

(too summarize much of the above)

Fantastic except for:

*an antagonistic role out, both for 3E fans and with the treatment of paizo and the OGL.

*Many, many problems in execution, which led to

*...obvious imbalance in a very balance oriented game

*...hp bloat and off math that made long combats really long

*...massive errata that got completely out of hand

*An everything is core approach plus powers for all and mediocre items and feats for many that led to a total bloat fest only rivaled by late 3E

*Too many "unique" character features that were not, combining a huge headache for the GM with the dreaded, if somewhat exaggerated, sameness of game play

*Ambitious approach to high level play totally out of touch with how people run campaigns...

*And that saw the strengths of 4E really get lost in complexity creep

*Skill challenges

*Kinda dull world building offset by the occasional gimmick in the first few years

*Total paucity of good adventures, especially in the first few years


Of course, we are still having fun with our 4E game. But nothing is perfect.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Hmmm- my clear error- I had thought Everway was introduced then killed after they bought TSR, not before. My timeline was off.

Flawed analysis partially withdrawn.

They still exhibited a classic cash crunch, though: even with $65m in sales, they could not support the 3 RPGs they owned. Everything in their RPG division lost money. The express reason for killing them was "lack of support": Everway had a four month shelf life.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Arguing 3E vs 4E now is like arguing what's better... 5.25 inch or 3.5 inch floppy disks (with the saddest part being a good half of the respondents here on the board probably won't even understand the reference I just made. )

I'm old enough to get it, but my analogy would be:

"Arguing 3e vs. 4e vs. 5e is like arguing 1970's Battlestar Galactica vs. New BSG vs. some new show that's in production where they've rehired random actors from both casts and are trying to splice both styles together in an effort to unite the fans of both."

(I have a definite opinion on the first two, and am pretty sure that the third is headed for mediocrity at best.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm old enough to get it, but my analogy would be:

"Arguing 3e vs. 4e vs. 5e is like arguing 1970's Battlestar Galactica vs. New BSG vs. some new show that's in production where they've rehired random actors from both casts and are trying to splice both styles together in an effort to unite the fans of both."

(I have a definite opinion on the first two, and am pretty sure that the third is headed for mediocrity at best.)

So...you're saying 5Ed is going to be Gattlestar Bataltica?

(And I preferred the little floppies- you could slip one in a shirt pocket.)

 

[Neonchameleon]

I want to know why everyone's still wasting their time arguing about whether 3E or 4E is better, seeing as how 5E is being worked on.

Shouldn't all your arguments now be about 3E vs 5E or 4E vs 5E?

Arguing 3E vs 4E now is like arguing what's better... 5.25 inch or 3.5 inch floppy disks (with the saddest part being a good half of the respondents here on the board probably won't even understand the reference I just made. )

The problem is D&D Next looks as if it's going to end up as the Extended Density 3.5" floppy disk - when a lot people are moving to either CD-R (MMORPGs) or zip drives (Storygames) and the remainder can't be bothered to copy everything they still use their floppy disks for across.

 

[TerraDave]

Hmmm- my clear error- I had thought Everway was introduced then killed after they bought TSR, not before. My timeline was off.

Flawed analysis partially withdrawn.

They still exhibited a classic cash crunch, though: even with $65m in sales, they could not support the 3 RPGs they owned. Everything in their RPG division lost money. The express reason for killing them was "lack of support": Everway had a four month shelf life.

in any case 2 years latter they bought TSR for a lot of money and by 99 were pretty much the top dog of hobby gaming, with WW loosing some steam, the euro-craze going but not were it would be in a few years (and Everquest addicting a relatively small number of people, though it may have seemed that few at the time).

 

[Sunseeker]

I want to know why everyone's still wasting their time arguing about whether 3E or 4E is better, seeing as how 5E is being worked on.

Shouldn't all your arguments now be about 3E vs 5E or 4E vs 5E?

Arguing 3E vs 4E now is like arguing what's better... 5.25 inch or 3.5 inch floppy disks (with the saddest part being a good half of the respondents here on the board probably won't even understand the reference I just made. )

But we can't argue if 5.25" are better than 3.5", because they're making blu-ray, so now all the comparisons need to be between 5.25" vs blu-ray, or 3.5" vs blu-ray. Of course...I think that's a pretty quick argument to have...And why does nobody talk about Laserdisks? Is it like taboo or something? Laserdisks were awesome, and had a much cooler name than "compact discs".

Personally I don't bother comparing 3.X and DDN because so far, DDN feels like a 3.X redo. It's like Wizards is saying sorry to all their 3.X fans and telling them that they'll stop cheating with their 4e mistress. Aside from a slightly better math and some different bells and whistles(which mostly existed in 3.X in some form anyway), I don't see a significant difference between the two, at least not any more than I see between say, 3.5 and Pathfinder.

 

[S'mon]

I radically disagree with this. Skill challenges are a complex scene resolution mechanic, functionally equivalent to BW Duels of Wits and HeroWars/Quests extended contest. Those systems aren't harmful to play - they are central to a certain sort of RPG play.

I also hated HeroWars/Quest extended contests; by the end I was practically begging the GM to stick to the simple one-roll task resolution system.

 

[Bluenose]

I also hated HeroWars/Quest extended contests; by the end I was practically begging the GM to stick to the simple one-roll task resolution system.

Was that with Heroquest 1st edition? Those could get tedious. 2nd edition made them quicker.

I still only do one or two per session at most. 9-month siege? Simple contest.

 

[pemerton]

Ambitious approach to high level play totally out of touch with how people run campaigns

Could you elaborate on this?