4th EDITION

[Thezdemeus]

well from what i checked out so far, 4th edition doesnt seem so bad..i received all three basic books(DM, Players & Monsters) yesterday..the only question now is, the races. Dragon born and Tieflings are now Player Character races..is en world going to allow this change of races to effect the rooms at all? since the dragon born DO look like dragons and the tieflings have thier horns..just wondering, thanks..anyways the rules and play seem to make more sense and are easier to incorporate as well..peace

 

[Tyrian_Spellstealer]

Having had access to 4e for a while now, I must say I'm even less impressed with it then I was when it was announced. I really dislike this game. But, I'm not here to hate on it (indeed, I'm running a tabletop game of it, just to prove that I've tried it).

Despite my dislike for this edition (especially what they've done with Dragonborn and Tieflings) I've stated before it would be very unwise to completely disregard the changes to 4e in terms of setting. This would only isolate new players, and would show a resistance to change (which, in terms of gathering new users and players, is bad).

From what I've gathered however, 4e is completely separate from Greyhawk, so more then likely these races will still not be aloud in that setting (unless disguised). They should be welcomed in the Sigil setting however, but I can't comment on Faerun (simply because I don't care to follow that setting).

So, I gather not much will change (Faerun aside), greyhawk will be as its always been, because 4e never really comes into it from a setting point of view, nor do dragonborn or tieflings - they're just not part of the setting (unless they are disguised, of course). As for Sigil, 4e races will be as welcomed there as much as anything, because it's Sigil, and anything goes. But, thats just what I've managed to gather.

So, conclusively, I imagine ISRP will allow 4e races like tieflings and dragonborns. In the sigil rooms at the least. Not in the Greyhawk rooms I imagine. This is probably a wise course of action: it allows new players to play their 4e characters, but doesn't isolate the oldies who (like myself) don't want to conform to the new edition standards, so rooms like The Crossroads Tavern will stay true to the setting: things with horns just aren't around or common.

 

[Tharivious]

I've got the books too. Anyone that wants my opinion and knows me, can request a link to me personally, as my review is posted elsewhere (and would be a CoC violation to boot, because I loathe the result of the system just that much - it's childish and simplified to the point of no longer having any thought to it). That aside...

Dragonborn and Tieflings, as per 4E, are radically different from their earlier counterparts. Considering that either of them are still allowed in the Sigil area, I'd expect them to still be allowed there.

As Tyrian said, however:

From what I've gathered however, 4e is completely separate from Greyhawk, so more then likely these races will still not be aloud in that setting (unless disguised).

... separate isn't the word I'd go with, though, but then the phrase I'd go with would be heavily censored and lose all of its meaning in the process, so we'll go with separate. WotC took the "People like to play monsters!!11" too far, and tried to make it normal in what should well be a more xenophobic setting than even Greyhawk (what with the whole Points of Light concept), and did it poorly by choosing the most cartoonishly awful images possible (especially when one considers that there are no more bronze dragons, which the dragonborn are modeled after, and that metallic dragons are no longer universally inclined to be good).

Worse yet, the 4E Tieflings are very much not disguise-friendly, with their absurdly large horns and third-leg of a tail, and Dragonborn aren't much better, since they're basically just lizardfolk with a dragon's head and no tail. So either one of those absurd races in the tavern? No... just... no.

 

[Lurking Shadow]

Ok i actually like 4E because of the way they simplified everything, i mean i got confused playing 3E because everything was so complex, now even a complete newcomer to dnd could understand how to play.

Ok i see how the greyhawk setting might not allow the dragonborn or tieflings right now, but what about when all the settings get updated, what happens then do we stay like we are or do we go with the flow. seriously a tiefling with horns and a tail is a big difference from a fireball slinging pit feind, and now that tieflings are Pc's it might be easier to integrate a reason why they no longer need to be disguised (they were at least partally accepted by society?)

all this is just my opinion

 

[Sienna_Rose]

From what I understand, Greyhawk is very xenophobic. And that wouldn't logically change just because some rules are released that include monsterous races as player classes.

I believe Nash is still looking into the changes as they affect Waterdeep and considering whether or not to change the Rotunda.

Personally, I don't really think the CRT should change for 4e. This is a free form site. And, while some of the rooms are based in published D&D settings, I don't think revised rules should affect said settings. Because they're already set - now, Nash may come up with a good story for bringing the Rotunda through the changes set up for Faerun, and that's cool. But, in my understanding Greyhawk is just way too xenophobic for that.

 

[Tharivious]

Ok i see how the greyhawk setting might not allow the dragonborn or tieflings right now, but what about when all the settings get updated, what happens then do we stay like we are or do we go with the flow. seriously a tiefling with horns and a tail is a big difference from a fireball slinging pit feind, and now that tieflings are Pc's it might be easier to integrate a reason why they no longer need to be disguised (they were at least partally accepted by society?)

Is it really that different? From a normal mortal's perspective, tell me the difference between a 4E tiefling and a 4E devil that would make a tiefling seem like someone you'd welcome into your town without a single Drizztism about having proven himself. If you believe it, prove it.

And they're accepted in the 4E quasi-setting (which isn't even fully there as originally presented, but that's another matter) because of a setting-specific civilization that once existed, and even then, they're stated as being exceedingly rare. The 4E tiefling has an utterly separate and distinct backstory from what the name has meant for the better part of the last 20-25 years; it's no longer a reference to someone with a fiendish ancestor and a bit more of that fiendish blood than their peers, but the descendant of a group of long-gone warlocks that made pacts with the new, also 4E-specific, devils... and looks fiendish for some arbitrary reason (a curse, to be precise).

Now, if you have a reason the tiefling would be welcomed into a normal, xenophobic town, let's hear it after being filtered through the "We know that your kind has been cursed for trafficking with devils in the past" coloured lenses. Still confident in them being viable without spitting on the setting's 30-year flavour?

Do you honestly think that a race that looks like devils because of an ancient curse laid down on them for serving devils would be accepted in a setting with a population that goes out of its way to shun or kill anything that isn't known to be good? Do you think they'll ask questions before shooting something with 18-inch long horns and a five-foot long tail, glowing red eyes, red-scaled skin, and fangs? Really? And the Dragonborn? Considering that they had to shoehorn them into the Realms by transplanting an entire nation over an existing one, I don't even want to consider the pillaging that Greyhawk would be in for.

Greyhawk may be the only setting that doesn't get disemboweled by the 4E hatchet-man, and that's only because Gygax's passing is still so fresh in gamers' minds. The 4E Realms are already known to not be the Realms anyone knows, and have probably been the greatest hotbed of anger from fans that are upset by the new edition's arrival. I'm not holding my breath there, but really, if they change the setting's flavour that much just to conform to a sophomoric new edition of the game, they'd be making a bigger mistake than I can properly explain.

 

[Thezdemeus]

Do you honestly think that a race that looks like devils because of an ancient curse laid down on them for serving devils would be accepted in a setting with a population that goes out of its way to shun or kill anything that isn't known to be good?

..............

with that being said, then why allow a neutral zone at all for any monstrous, angelic or demonic creatures..even if they are disguised. If Greyhawk is so xenophobic they would have ways of being able to detect outsiders. I understand what you are saying about the tieflings and dragon born, but why should they be the exception when everyone else is allowed as long as they have a disguise? I personally think this is going to cause a problem for experienced roleplayers as well as new ones. There are only going to be two rooms for anyone even thinking of using the tiefling or dragon born while everyone else gets to roam about freely as long as they remain disguised in the required settings. Free form and loosely based on D&D rules at this point in time, seem to have collided because of thier direct differences. Its been admitted not everyone on this site uses d-n-d rules. So why not cut out the loosely based on D-n-D and just leave it at free form play so anything and everything can be allowed? Seems to make sense to me. Thanks

 

[Bari]

There's something that nobody seems to acknowledge when they're deciding what creatures, races, monsters or whatever you call it, can roam a place: The natural balance, and natural selection. Through history we've learned that the things unable to adapt to the world simply die. It's a fantasy setting? Fine. Yet you got to think. How come humans still survive - and hey, thrive and are supposedly the most populous race! - if there are dragon people and super demon people having realms and stuff around?

 

[Tharivious]

..............

Aren't rhetorical questions with obvious answers fun and educational?

with that being said, then why allow a neutral zone at all for any monstrous, angelic or demonic creatures.

Welcome, sir, to Sigil. Where you can play whatever you want to, disguised or undisguised, with no limitations beyond what other players are willing to interact with.

.even if they are disguised.

You mean, like any other freakish race that isn't typically part of an adventuring party as per the 30 years of game history and, oh, 60 some years (probably much, much more) of literary history?

If Greyhawk is so xenophobic they would have ways of being able to detect outsiders.

Because in Greyhawk, not every community is designed to have an archmage or high priest capable of doing so. That, and most settings are built without the childish Detect-Thump! paladin-archetype for a reason: It's annoying and does nothing to encourage roleplaying.

I understand what you are saying about the tieflings and dragon born, but why should they be the exception when everyone else is allowed as long as they have a disguise?

... which they already are, if you can find a way to hide what they are. I'm not saying to make them the bloody exception, I'm saying that no matter what nonsense 4E wants to put forth about them being acceptable standard PCs, that they sure as hell should not be an exception to the "If you don't look like a human/elf/dwarf/halfling/gnome, you can't come to the Tavern without a disguise" rule.

I personally think this is going to cause a problem for experienced roleplayers as well as new ones. There are only going to be two rooms for anyone even thinking of using the tiefling or dragon born while everyone else gets to roam about freely as long as they remain disguised in the required settings.

You mean, like they are now? The only problem lies with the "Everyone is alright as long as they have fun" jargon of the modern age that leads to this kind of flawed thinking. D&D: the MMO Age should not, and I honestly believe, will not change the definition of logic, no matter how badly they want the dragonborn and tieflings to r0xx0rs.

Free form and loosely based on D&D rules at this point in time, seem to have collided because of thier direct differences. Its been admitted not everyone on this site uses d-n-d rules.

Yes, and? The settings of the site are based on D&D settings of ages past (and I say that for a reason). This is not loosely based, it is a setting, a background for what we all freeform amidst, that gives us context for what we do. Any character played in the chats can be played in any setting, in theory, but in reality, they won't make sense. Suggesting otherwise is like suggesting that we have knights on horseback get valet parking at TMP.

So why not cut out the loosely based on D-n-D and just leave it at free form play so anything and everything can be allowed? Seems to make sense to me. Thanks

Because that would destroy the context of the setting, which we've gone over eight-thousand times on these boards since the site move, and yet it never seems to sink in with the same few people, no matter how many times other patrons or the Magi explain it. If you want to play something monstrous without a disguise, go to the Sigil rooms, this is what we (Rajak, myself, and others) lobbied for. If you want to disguise something monstrous, and can make it look normal enough to fit in with a xenophobic human settlement, then you can visit the other settings.

 

[Bhryn]

Sigil means I can have my celestial wings out.

CRT means Siani throws me over her shoulder and into the river if I waltz in with them displayed. Though I think she just likes getting B wet...

It's okay Siani I won't tell!

Although these are stated rules about appearance, you'll always find someone willing to publically announce what they are, without giving any thought to what we've all had drilled into us...

 

[Sienna_Rose]

Free form and loosely based on D&D rules at this point in time, seem to have collided because of thier direct differences. Its been admitted not everyone on this site uses d-n-d rules. So why not cut out the loosely based on D-n-D and just leave it at free form play so anything and everything can be allowed?

It's not just D&D rules, it's the setting itself. Regardless of what dice are rolled, what stats are looked at, the town is paranoid. From a long history of wars, etc.

It has been pointed out that disguises would be difficult - not impossible. Yeah, a cloak won't hide the tail and horns. But, a shape shifting spell or an illusion (if careful not to hit anything with the tail) would. More thought will have to be put into it.

As far as having a neutral ground where the various races can show up - that's because there is an understanding with the guard that Siani is responsible for what happens in the tavern. She'll take care of the trouble makers. Townsfolk, in general, don't know the races that show up in there, or there would be big trouble. And, in order to keep that agreement up, the patrons of the tavern can't flaunt what they are where the townsfolk can see them. Thus the disguises - magical or otherwise.

 

[Magi_Siani]

The Greyhawk Setting Rules will not change. No exceptions for 4e.

There are no plans to produce any more material for Greyhawk so in effect it is in stasis, which suits me fine.

I absolutely detest 4e and that will do on that subject.

Siani does like getting B wet, naturally. I believe she's said so a time or two in the past.

Magi Siani

 

[tahlan]

Forgotten realms is spose to jump some 200 years into the future, so it made be hard to update, as many play humans without such longevity and will not wish to pretend they were in this time all along, or end a storyline because of an update in rules.

 

[Elf_Ariel]

Okay...I haven't read 4E, so probably dont deserve to have an oppinion. But as you all know...I have them anyways. Suffer and die!

But...okay, so the rules have changed. Logically the rules apply to characters...unless someone changes the 'setting' rules. Now forgive me if I'm wrong (it happens a lot)...but so far as I can tell 4E changes are character specific changes aren't they? With the exception of what Tahlan's suggestion of course. Which I wouldn't know about, me and FR dont get along!

I guess, the point I'm trying to make is...I'll use a car analogy...our settings are like roads. We all should get the same map. On some roads, all cars can drive...whereas on others...only the super fast ones can go. No one in their right mind drives at 70kph in a 100kph zone... If you cant -fit- in...dont drive there! No one is suddenly going to change it from 100kph to 70kph just because you'd like them to.

 

[Infernal Scribe]

Greyhawk will most likely get updated a few years from now, like the other setting books when they get around to it for 4e. But like Siani said, the CRT won't change due to 3rd edition, 3.5 edition, Ars magica, 4th edition, or World of Darkness edition or any other type of edition until she feels like she wants to update the setting.

To introduce tieflings is easy enough to a xenophobic setting. They're going to be pariah and freaks. Shunned, insulted, tossed rotten veggies at, and probably live down the river in a small hut and raised by parents who either don't want them, are mad, or generally going to have a hard life. They're child hoods are going to be hellish (no pun intended). If your going to go with the 4e idea on their other worldly origins, it is easy enough to do some research on the Greyhawk setting to note that there are a few fallen evil kingdoms in the past that probably dealt with devils (Vecna, Invid, etc).

As for Dragonborn, the people of the region are going to have problems due to mistaking these people for lizard folk. Which are abundant in the swamps surrounding the area. But if you want to play 4e Dragonborn, it could be explained to a massive migration from the West, emissaries from the Blood Isles of Io, or etc.

But if you plan to play any of these races, the setting of CRT states you need a disguise. So invest in those hats of disguise, spells of disguise, or the engimatic black knight that never takes off their helmet of King Arthur Lore.

The FR rooms don't need to change, unless Nashira feels like she wants to update the room. But with all the planar activity, its easy enough to play planar travelers from an alternative FR (cue 50s creepy music and the quote "I come from the Future!") and is now trapped in the past. And Waterdeep is a major trade city that, depending on what Ward your in, a Dragonborn and a Tiefling will probably just earn you a odd look.

As for Sigil, anything is open game.

And on the side, I like 4e. It feels like 3e when it first came out. And like 3e when it first came out, requires alot of House Rules and things you cannibalize from the previous edition. Until the splat books come out and spoil you with more options. (2e - race and kit books. 3e - races and class books. And the trend continues further in 4e).

 

[Lurking Shadow]

Ok now that i see everything clearer id like to say that this has been enlightening for me, considering not much gets through my thick teenage skull.
that aside i'd like to apologise to everyone for causeing a commotion over something as simple as tieflings and dragonborn. if you need me i'll be around, just not here.
thanks

P.s to Tharivious:
Everyone IS supposed to have fun they just need to follow the rules while doing so.
Sorry im done now ^_^

 

[Xen_Tiras]

Personally, I really like 4E, but I see no reason why any of the settings here should be updated. They're all pretty established in our minds, and I think it would be nice if they stayed that way.

Also, I find it funny that everyone mentions the dragonborn and tieflings, but never the eladrin. We lose the gnome and the half-orc (Not really lost, just moved to the MM and still playable) and what do we get? Another elf? Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

 

[tahlan]

I Was upset with losing some of the races and classes, but I like the Eladrin. I also like many of the changes and simplifications of 4e.

 

[Magi_Nashira]

The FR rooms don't need to change, unless Nashira feels like she wants to update the room. But with all the planar activity, its easy enough to play planar travelers from an alternative FR (cue 50s creepy music and the quote "I come from the Future!") and is now trapped in the past. And Waterdeep is a major trade city that, depending on what Ward your in, a Dragonborn and a Tiefling will probably just earn you a odd look.

I haven't had a chance to sit down and go through my books as of yet, but I am of the opinion of keeping the Rotunda room and setting the way that it is, and not updating. If that changes I will inform.

 

[Tharivious]

Also, I find it funny that everyone mentions the dragonborn and tieflings, but never the eladrin. We lose the gnome and the half-orc (Not really lost, just moved to the MM and still playable) and what do we get? Another elf? Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

Probably because it's exactly that - just another elf. 3.5 had five elves between the PhB and Monster Manual (plus another 2 from Forgotten Realms, and about 8 more from Dragon magazine), having two (three counting the partial drow entry, which is probably all that we're getting on them based on what happens in Ascendence of the Last... dark elves as a separate race, good job 4E Realms!) isn't quite that bad. What's outlandish about the dragonborn and the tiefling is that they are the races that belong in the Monster Manual and not the initial Player's Handbook, as they are intended to be rare and uncommon as heroes, and look like the sort of monsters adventurers are expected to kill in their careers. Splitting the elves into two races and dropping the excess in the Monster Manual and Forgotten Realms... decent enough trade.

What irks me more is the (in my opinion) disgusting effect on the planes that 4E has had regarding all of the outsider races (yes, it's flavour... except for what they hardwired into the rules, which was quite a lot of it) (devils, demons, angels, eladrin, archons, and yes, even the slaad were all brutalized, let alone what happened to the yugoloths), and the egregious mistakes in the alignment system (ie, keeping it, but removing the four alignments the designers couldn't walk down the hall and talk to one of the 3E development leads about for five minutes to make sense of, and merging NG/CG, NE/LE, LG/LN, and CE/CN in the process). Worse yet, they referenced Sigil as being part of the cosmology of the core setting, which means I'm sure it's going to find itself getting the 4E treatment (a brutal beating followed by having its lunch money stolen) before too long, and I'm sure we can expect a level 36 Lady of Pain by the time Monster Manual III goes to print. Could be an exaggeration, but at the rate WotC is going, it's probably not too far off from the reality.