Vaalingrade
Legend
It's actually a clever, low key way of saying 'I don't want a death spiral'.
5.5/6e - Is it time for Wounds/Vitality?
- Thread starter Stalker0
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LuisCarlos17f
Legend
It should be easy and fast to be understood by new players. Some times I have thought to use two "pools", one would be the classic "hit points" and the other would be the "health levels", close to the storytelling system. The health levels would be the same for the most of times, but recovering would be harder and slower. Something like the shields by the protos in Starcraft. The classic hit points would be the "shield", and the health leves would be true "lifeforce".
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
YES, YES, YES and a thousand times YES!!! It is a far superior system to just hit points.
I was so disappointed when I looked into 5E and they did not adopt it....
A "death spiral" isn't actually a thing in the game. There is no reason mechanically or story-wise that a death spiral should occur. I interpret death spiral to mean "I don't want anything in the game that might limit my character from doing whatever I want." Heaven forbid we lost hit points, heaven forbid we have any kind of lasting effects (nope, spells re-save every round), injuries? Pfft. As good as gold at 1hp as at 156hp.
The wounds/vitality discussion is more about taking something abstract, ie HP, and making them more specific: meat and "luck". If that level of specificity grates on you, then don't use it. Some of us might want that included in the rules (optional or otherwise), because it makes the game more interesting to us.
Death Spiral is a conversation/discussion killer. Its abstract, isn't actually a "thing" in the game, just a buzzword that gets thrown about when someone doesn't agree with something having to do with introducing more challenge to the game.
"Death spiral" is a term in RPG design to describe a mechanic where a character's ability to perform gets worse as they take damage, making it easier for the character to die the more damage they take. It isn't abstract at all except in the sense that all game design terms are abstractions in some way - it's a description of a type of game mechanic that can be good or bad depending on the kind of game you're playing.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
I don't think redifineing hitpoints by itself needs to make a death spiral. Although Bloodied mechanics would be nice again
Oofta
Legend
Maybe there was a reason they didn't keep him around? Maybe he was promising things that didn't sound like a workable product or one that others believed would not target the market they were aiming for?
The so-called "promises" were comments made during an interview, never published as official direction for the product. What was there to retract? They had a public play test to give people ideas what the system would be and gave plenty of time for feedback.In any case it's water that went under the bridge so long ago that it long ago made it's way to the ocean. The horse is dead and buried, there's no reason to keep beating the grave.
Correct, and while a W/VP system can include a death spiral (once you take damage from your wound pool you suffer a -2 to your AC as one example), it certainly doesn't have to. The only penalty to taking wound damage could simply be the difficulty in healing it back, which is not a death spiral.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
the best example I have is WoD. You have 7 health levels but when down 3 you are at -1 to all rolls, and down 4 is -2... by 6 (almost dead) you are at -5 to all rolls) now WoD is worse cause you roll to dodge or parry and to soak damage... so you get worse at avoiding damage cause you have damage
So you're talking a Palladium-style hit point/SDC distinction? (I actually prefer that kind of terminology over "Wound Points" if the "Wound" isn't going to actually be a wound and is just special hit points, but YMMV).
I mean, I guess - I'd still like to see it as an optional system because it adds what I'd consider to be an unnecessary layer of complexity to a system that doesn't need it.
Vaalingrade
Legend
Yeah - WOD is one of the worst death spiral type games in that respect. I remember my hard core WoD friends back in the day defending that design choice as the game making combat extra deadly so you choose to not do it unless you absolutely have to, but it seems like if you want to downplay combat in your game there are better ways to do it than death spirals.
J.Quondam
CR 1/8
I wouldn't want VP/WP as the default, but it'd be nice to have a variant rule, umm, fleshed out for GM use.
Personally, I like something simple, like Steampunkette's approach. Maybe tack on crit fails, to allow for WP damage on botched save v fireball, etc.
Like every other stat, WP/VP is just another design dimension that can work for or against a character, depending.
Personally, I like something simple, like Steampunkette's approach. Maybe tack on crit fails, to allow for WP damage on botched save v fireball, etc.
Agreed. It could even be implemented as the reverse, along the lines of the "bloodied" condition used in 4e. Eg, if a character drops to half WP, they get some sort of "resolve bonus" or activate a "hard to kill" trait or something to reduce further WP disadvantages-- in effect, forcing the death spiral in the counter direction.
Like every other stat, WP/VP is just another design dimension that can work for or against a character, depending.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
you would think the team would communicate that...Maybe there was a reason they didn't keep him around? Maybe he was promising things that didn't sound like a workable product or one that others believed would not target the market they were aiming for?
Imagine a tech insider speaking for apple said the next Iphone would have X Y and Z, and a month or two later he is fired... if the company didn't come out and say "No it isn't that employee was mistaken/lying/crazy" then yeah... it is still the company.
have you ever heard people on youtube tic tock and the like say "I work for X but I don't speak for the brand or the company" there is a reason they keep parroting that line.
a public statement of intent by a current employee that was working on the project.
yet here we are... with yyou needing us to explain why we believed WotC employees statements.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
J.Quondam
CR 1/8
Well, still keep an eye out for that badwrongfun. It's a reach weapon!
Vaalingrade
Legend
grimslade
Krampus ate my d20s
I would love a fleshed-out Vitality/Wound points option. Mainly, it would open the door to more mechanics within bounded accuracy, like a spell casting system that used vitality to fuel powers and a fatigue system that was not so punishing. To ameliorate the impact on melee combatants perhaps an ability to divert wound damage or limited heal/ignore some wound damage. 4Es Bloodied mechanic could be repurposed to Wounded when you suffer wound damage.
I would love to see a psionics system that used vitality points to replace the concentration mechanic. You spend some of your combat effectiveness to maintain focus on sustaining a power or managing psychic combat during a fight.
I would love to see a psionics system that used vitality points to replace the concentration mechanic. You spend some of your combat effectiveness to maintain focus on sustaining a power or managing psychic combat during a fight.
Oofta
Legend
Someone that didn't even work on the product long enough to make it to the playtest (much less actual concrete rules or likely even drafts of the PHB or DMG) had some ideas that didn't pan out. Meanwhile we have the best selling version of D&D ever released. I simply don't see what the issue is.
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