i guess my thing is that at some point it's just math for the sake of math. like why am i adding +20 to the save? just give me the success at that point.
Yes, at level 20 or whatever indomidable could convert to "you auto save".
When should it happen? +15 isn't quite enough (if you have a base -2, that is a +13). If it happens at level 20, however, it is a bit late ("what a useless feature, you already always save").
this is an absolutely bizarre way of looking at things that i simply cannot understand.
Ok, so action surge is great! Imagine if action surge recharged on an action instead of a short rest.
You could say that action surge is "worth" about a 1/3 increase in player damage output, based on the first 3 rounds of a combat being the important ones. +33% output effectiveness.
Now give the character 2 action surges. The 2nd is worth... +25%. How about 3? +20%.
If they where worth the same amount percentage wise, the 3 action surge character would be 1.33^3 = 2.35x as good as the 0 action surge character; instead they are 2x.
How about 1 billion action surges? They clearly aren't 1 billion times more powerful. Those last 999,999,999 action surges are each less useful than the first.
The ability to auto save 1/day is better if you can't already do it, the 2nd isn't as good as the first.
But with indomidable, your "auto saves" aren't quite auto saves; instead they are rerolls with a large bonus. That bonus goes up as you gain levels. So from level 9 to 13 you both gain a 2nd use of indomidable,
and a +4 bonus to indomidable checks on both uses. Which helps the ability super-scale with additional fighter levels.
you have to remember, though, that enemy save DCs are increasing at a similar rate along those levels. so yeah, sure, your wisdom save at level 9 is a +10, but that's against a DC 16. and your wisdom save might be a +21 at level 20, but that's against a DC 25-27 (since you're probably fighting an endgame boss at that point). that's really only a +1 at best.
I don't think all fights at level 20 are endgame bosses?
And hopefully you have done more to shore up your wisdom save from level 10 to 20 than nothing! I invested hugely in a combination of making the character immune to common conditions (charm, fear, teleport, plane shift, paralyze, slow, death) and getting save boosts with my last higher level melee type, and they didn't even reach 20.
So, +11 vs +24 and maybe advantage.
you...completely misunderstood what i was saying. i wasn't saying any given fighter using indomitable was getting the same mileage. i was saying the SAME fighter using any one of their CURRENT uses of indomitable is getting the same mileage out of each. a level 20 fighter is getting a +20 on each use of their indomitable.
So, the ability to indomidable 1/day is more than half as good as they ability to do it 2/day.
If you had 1/day use of it, you'd save it for "omg I'm screwed if I fail this". You'll probably not run into this as many times per day, and the 2nd time per day is moot if you didn't use it the first time anyhow; the 2nd use is
less important than the first use.
With 2/day you start being tempted to use it on "that would really suck" instead of "I'm utterly screwed", and with 3/day one of the uses is probably going to be against a relatively minor problem.
The impact on the game narrative from 3 uses per day is less than 3 times the impact of 1 use per day. The mechanical effect is identical; the opportunity to use it won't be.
Unless, of course, the DM decides "I target bob with indomidable until all of its uses are finished; then I aim for someone else. My job is to ensure each player gets to use their class features!", which could happen.
