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[5E] A Rogue "unnerf" - Extra Attack

Saelorn

Adventurer
While looking over the classes, it occured to me that Rogues are the only "battler" class (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Ranger, and Rogue) that don't every get the Extra Attack feature. The other five classes all get it at 5th level. Is there some reason behind this? They are limited to one sneak attack per turn, so it isn't as though they could get more sneak attacks or something.
It's an issue with design complexity. Even though sneak attack would be limited to once per turn, were rogues to have multiple attacks per round, that combination of rules is much more complex than the alternative. As long as rogues only have one attack, you can simply explain that rogues get sneak attack as long as they meet the conditions, and you don't have to worry about the per-turn limit. If someone wants to muck about with two-weapon fighting or something like that, then they can deal with that as an exception to how rogues normally work, and normal players never have to worry about it.

You see the same issue with clerics, who only get their bonus damage to one attack per round. They aren't going to impose a limit where they can be reasonably certain that you'll bump up against that limit on a regular basis. If you want to find some way for them to get extra attacks, then that's on you, and the once-per-turn rule is only there to make sure you don't accidentally break something by doing so.
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
So watching Critical Role, is it a house rule that lets rogues attack more than once?
I've never seen it, so I wouldn't know myself.

I like the idea of the Swift Attack feature, and have added it to the house-rules for our group to review next weekend.

As an aside, I think Sneak Attack, Divine Strike, and similar features should be declared "in use" prior to the attack and lost even if the attack misses.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
So watching Critical Role, is it a house rule that lets rogues attack more than once?
Attack more than once or sneak attack more than once?

In the first case, the answer is two-weapon fighting (or Crossbow Expert, or fighter multiclassing, or Haste...)

In the second case, the rules only limit you to one sneak attack per turn, not per round.
 

Esker

Exploree
So watching Critical Role, is it a house rule that lets rogues attack more than once?
As @CapnZapp said, rogues can use the TWF rules like anyone else. I haven't seen the current campaign but if you're thinking of Vax, he had some powerful magic items that let him throw three daggers on many turns by combining TWF and Haste, and having the daggers return to his belt after throwing them. But he still only got sneak attack damage once per turn (he could in principle have deferred his main attack to another turn by readying an action, and thus qualified for a second sneak attack, but that's a bit cheesy, IMO)

His unusual case is probably part of the reason people think rogues are overpowered though.
 
As @CapnZapp said, rogues can use the TWF rules like anyone else. I haven't seen the current campaign but if you're thinking of Vax, he had some powerful magic items that let him throw three daggers on many turns by combining TWF and Haste, and having the daggers return to his belt after throwing them. But he still only got sneak attack damage once per turn (he could in principle have deferred his main attack to another turn by readying an action, and thus qualified for a second sneak attack, but that's a bit cheesy, IMO)

His unusual case is probably part of the reason people think rogues are overpowered though.
I was thinking more of Nott the arcane trickster rogue that fires multiple crossbow shots per round.
 

FrogReaver

Adventurer
Again, the way to counter improved sneak attack potential damage is to make the rogue use the sneak attack feature as part of the attack before the roll is made. If you miss, you lose the sneak attack.

I am not looking for more ways to add potential to sneak attack, but by allowing rogues the extra attack feature at 5th and higher levels, you create more options. Perhaps the first attack is a shove to knock the target prone. If successful, the next attack is with advantage and can thus benefit from the sneak attack feature.

It also frees up the rogue to not have to rely on TWF to gain a second attack and frees up the bonus action for more uses, etc.

And yes, as you quoted me, they are limited to one per turn. I know they can get two per round via a reaction (such as an OA). We've even added a new feat, Reactive, which allows a character to make two reactions per round! (Oh, how the heavens tremble! LOL)

Off to work, I will be interested to read responses when I get home tonight.
If rogue was given sneak attack each round but you had to declare which attack you were using it for. Honestly, at that point I would just shove prone with the first attack and then always sneak attack on the 2nd.

I don't think the change actually gives the rogue options, you've just created a new most optimized strategy for the rogue.
 

FrogReaver

Adventurer
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the rogue is underpowered on the whole, since they get a lot of nice non-damage (and non-combat) options -- a big part of their value is in their skills! -- but it's true that in a game with feats (read: pretty much every game), they lack a path to being a top tier DPR class.
Haste + using the action for an offturn attack. Whether it's self buffed by the arcane trickster or having an ally cast it on you. Haste is how to make a rogue be top tier DPR.

The only downside is that such an ability self cast comes online a little later than most prefer.
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
Haste + using the action for an offturn attack. Whether it's self buffed by the arcane trickster or having an ally cast it on you. Haste is how to make a rogue be top tier DPR.

The only downside is that such an ability self cast comes online a little later than most prefer.
Same problem of the Eldritch Knight. Level 3 spells level 15. To late to be useful.

A brutal type rogue can mc with fighter and wear plate. Shield master feat, expertise in athletics.

They made lots of good strength based feats to compensate Dex to damage and they made sharpshooter so Dex based melee tends to suck except for the rogue.

The Rogue also out performs the fighter at certain levels.

With how careful they were with extra attacks and damage dice I can only assume they didn't think the -5/+10 feats could be used almost at well. Or sharpshooter which in effect ends up as -1/+10 damage
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
They're indeed limited to one sneak attack per turn.

Turn, not round. You can sneak attack on your own turn and then again (using a reaction) on a monster's turn for a total of two sneak attacks each combat round.

(I am currently unaware of a way to gain more than two)
Thief Rogues get an extra turn as their archetype capstone.
 

rczarnec

Explorer
The Thief ability kicks in at 17. Also at 17 the Scout Rogue can get two sneak attacks on the same turn, but not twice against the same target.
 

Ashrym

Explorer
Ah.

Haven't played to level 20 though
Yeah, I brought it up earlier too. High level thieves easily get 2 SA's in the first round and add a 3rd by reaction.

Assassins add death attack and tricksters self-haste. I know a lot of people like assassins for crits but I prefer thief and trickster; usually thief.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
Sure, but it not a generally useful response to my criticism of the sneak attack design and the not-so user-friendliness of the Rogue.

Thank you for bringing these abilities to my attention, but for most players solutions at level 17 or 20 could just as well not exist at all.
 
From what I've noticed, Rogues use TWF for the extra chance at SA and not for the extra d6 damage. And they tend to want Extra Attack not for the extra damage but for the extra attempt at SA without having to TWF or CBE so they can free up their Bonus Action for Cunning Action. Basically Rogues just want SA as reliably as possible, and the extra damage is more a byproduct for most Rogues. Min/Maxers are the exception.

So i was thinking, why not give the Rogues something that's essentially;

Reliable Attack/Second Change: When you miss with your Attack Action you can attack a second time.

That way the DPS cap of the Rogue doesn't actually go up, but will give Rogues that extra change for SA, which is what Rogues are most interested in. And you side step Extra Attack which people seem to be weary of.

Rogues have a feature called Reliable Talent so it's keeping in theme. And I think it's more in theme that their combat advancement focused more on freeing up your Bonus Action for Cunning Action and getting SA rather then doing extra damage. Plus I just think there's something roguish about saying "I get to try again just because I'm a rogue."
 
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dnd4vr

Adventurer
From what I've noticed, Rogues use TWF for the extra chance at SA and not for the extra d6 damage. And they tend to want Extra Attack not for the extra damage but for the extra attempt at SA without having to TWF or CBE so they can free up their Bonus Action for Cunning Action. Basically Rogues just want SA as reliably as possible, and the extra damage is more a byproduct for most Rogues. Min/Maxers are the exception.

So i was thinking, why not give the Rogues something that's essentially;

Reliable Attack/Second Change: When you miss with your Attack Action you can attack a second time.

That way the DPS cap of the Rogue doesn't actually go up, but will give Rogues that extra change for SA, which is what Rogues are most interested in. And you side step Extra Attack which people seem to be weary of.

Rogues have a feature called Reliable Talent so it's keeping in theme. And I think it's more in theme that their combat advancement focused more on freeing up your Bonus Action for Cunning Action and getting SA rather then doing extra damage. Plus I just think there's something roguish about saying "I get to try again just because I'm a rogue."
It reminds me of the Stalker's Flurry: At 11th level, you learn to attack with such unexpected speed that you can turn a miss into another strike. Once on each of your turns when you miss with a weapon attack, you can make another weapon attack as part of the same action.

This is a nice option also, but I would probably associate a cost with it, like using your reaction to reroll the failed attack. This emphasizes if the rogue is pushing offense over defense, since giving up the reaction prevents Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. Yep, I like it...

Second Strike
At 5th level, you have mastered using your speed to turn your failed attacks into second chances. When you miss with a weapon attack, you can use your reaction to make another weapon attack as part of the same action. You must use the same weapon for the additional attack.
 
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coolAlias

Explorer
Second Strike
At 5th level, you have mastered using your speed to turn your failed attacks into second chances. When you miss with a weapon attack, you can use your reaction to make another weapon attack as part of the same action. You must use the same weapon for the additional attack.
I like this version of the rule much better than giving rogues the Extra Attack feature. It's thematic and contains an interesting decision for rogue players to make.
 

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