D&D 5E [5E] A Rogue "unnerf" - Extra Attack

[DND_Reborn]

The dislike of expertise isn't limited to rogues. Any archetype feature that grants double proficiency bonus has the same issue. How about a fighterish subclass of rogue? ;-)

 

[Nevvur]

While looking over the classes, it occured to me that Rogues are the only "battler" class (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Ranger, and Rogue) that don't every get the Extra Attack feature. The other five classes all get it at 5th level. Is there some reason behind this? They are limited to one sneak attack per turn, so it isn't as though they could get more sneak attacks or something. I thought maybe one of their archetypes would get it at least, like College of Swords for Bards, but there wasn't anything there either.

While enough rogue nerfing has been going on, would it be crazy to unnerf them a bit and allow Extra Attack at some point? If not 5th level (like most others, except Bard), then 6th?

Thoughts, anyone?

I think 5e rogues were not designed to be the premier (sustained) DPR class. They can definitely bring some, but their DPR gets balanced against their utility and defensive traits. Their spotlight (serious misnomer here) is when they're using skills, not attacking. Scouting ahead, disabling traps, playing a con game, etc...

Personally, I would only homebrew/house rule extra DPR for rogues if I were running a meatgrinder combat adventure where they don't get much time to play in the exploration and social pillars. Even so, it's MUCH safer to shore up combat deficits with magic items than altering the class itself.

 

[Esker]

The dislike of expertise isn't limited to rogues. Any archetype feature that grants double proficiency bonus has the same issue. How about a fighterish subclass of rogue? ;-)

Sure, you could do that instead, but it seems like between your belief that rogues shouldn't be mathematically better at skills than other classes and your interest in giving them extra attack and various other combat abilities that you mentioned in the other thread, you're already part of the way to turning them into a type of fighter. So why not give it a try? What would the rogue look like if it were converted into a fighter subclass? Maybe something like:

Level 3: some kind of skill perk, and the option to swap proficiency in CON saves for proficiency in DEX saves
Level 3: some kind of sneak attack-like ability, with slower scaling than the actual Sneak Attack ability: maybe an extra 1d8 once per turn, requiring the attack action to activate, scaling to 2d8 at level 7, 3d8 at level 10, 4d8 at level 15, and 5d8 at level 18, restricted to finesse and ranged weapons
Level 7: Uncanny Dodge
Level 10: Evasion
Level 15: Slippery Mind
Level 18: Elusive

 

[CapnZapp]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the rogue is underpowered on the whole, since they get a lot of nice non-damage (and non-combat) options -- a big part of their value is in their skills! -- but it's true that in a game with feats (read: pretty much every game), they lack a path to being a top tier DPR class.

Whether they should be given a path to being a top tier DPR class is another question, since compared to the fighter, say, they have a lot more utility baked in to even the base class, so it's probably only fair that the fighter get better damage abilities.

shrug

In a game about fighting, you'd think there would be at least one subclass for the player who wants to play the true glass cannon - with truly stellar DPR to compensate for being such a fragile frontliner character.

All this talk about skills is fine and all, but the Rogue lacks a damage-dealing build.

The crucial point is a lack of a feat to correspond to the fighter's -5/+10 feats.

Then there's the sneak attack minmax. Of all fundamental optimizations, this is imo by far the hardest to understand and master. (Still five years after release lots of players don't understand the nuances) I see no reason the sneak attack must be that hard to work with. Why not make it relatively simple to get your two sneaks per combat round? That's the approach of almost everything else in 5E.

And I'm talking about the base game. This feat, the subclass and the user-friendly sneak attack mechanism should all have been in the PHB.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think the subject under discussion here would indeed be better accomplished by designing a fighter subclass than a homebrew change to rogues generally.

@CapnZapp - the rogue has access to sharpshooter, which is half the -5/+10 and the Rogue lacks access to the other -5/+10 only to the extent that all Dex-based fighters do. It's not a problem unique to the rogue, nor do I think the rogue is the character on that list who most needs a fix in this regard. What 5e needs is something like -5/+10 but for dexterity melee builds.

Back to the fighter subclass for a moment - that would be great place to test out dex based replacements for GWM.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

All this talk about skills is fine and all, but the Rogue lacks a damage-dealing build.

Perhaps you’ve never seen a half-orc assassin in play at your table. It’s real, and its damage is spectacular.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Perhaps you’ve never seen a half-orc assassin in play at your table. It’s real, and its damage is spectacular.

LOL that is exactly the other rogue build at our table. He is coupled with some fighter, though, but in our last session totally shined! He was assassinating stuff left-and-right, and with our revised expertise/cunning action options, the star of the session.

 

[Ashrym]

Turn, not round. You can sneak attack on your own turn and then again (using a reaction) on a monster's turn for a total of two sneak attacks each combat round.

(I am currently unaware of a way to gain more than two)

It doesn't need to be a monster's turn. Commander's strike allows it on a player's turn, for example. Picking up that ability somehow can turn one petson's attack into a sneak attack rather easily. Just not sustainably.

 

[Gladius Legis]

To wit, a well-placed Command: Flee with the Rogue + 1 other melee ally next to the target does the trick with a Cleric's or Paladin's 1st-level slot.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's only really a problem vs a powergamer with certain feats. You have to take certain feats and subclasses to keep up.

The combos are.

Sentinel feat in general.
Crossbow Expert plus assassin
Magic Initiate + green flame blade+ mastermind
Healer plus thief (less damage)

And of course if you have a Battlemaster.

If you don't have someone abusing the -5/+10 feats and take the above options you might put the fighter to shame.

Keep in mind the Rogue will be a lot better outside combat so having them deal fighter level damage is silly IMHO. You can almost do an all rogue party as is.