D&D 5E 5e, bringing the importance of environment back to the front?

[Sacrosanct]

Not sure if that's the best way to word the title of the thread, but here's what I'm getting at. It seems to me that 5e seems to go back to really making creative thinking as it impacts your environment, rather than rely on a power/skill/feat to overcome a combat challenge, that may have been the emphasis in recent editions.

This isn't meant to edition war, or even remotely imply that you couldn't do creative thinking with your environment in recent editions, and in fact I'm sure lots of people did. But rather, an observation that 5e places less emphasis on powers/skills, and therefore indirectly encourages out of the box thinking similar to TSR editions.

This hit me playing HotDQ the other day.

*****SPOILERS*****

In episode 4, where you are supposed to infiltrate the caves and recon and/or destroy the dragon eggs. I was playing a level 3 shadow monk, and when we entered the caves, we captured one of the drunk cultists. I donned his robes and proceeded to scout ahead. I came to the big room with the dozen or so cultists, managed to get a natural 20 on my persuade check when they asked why I was there, and continued to scout down the hallway to the cleric's chambers. First thought is, "Ok, if we battle these guys, I don't want them fleeing down here, and I don't want her coming to help. She looks formidable." So in that hallway, out of sight, I laid down caltrops, a hunting trap, and poured my flask of oil over them.

During the battle, sure enough two guards tried to flee to her and get her, got caught in my trap, and I threw a torch to set them on fire and prevent the cleric from coming.

In recent editions, looking back, I think that probably would have been handled with more powers. I.e., abilities to control the battlefield via trips, shoves, pulls, etc in combination with AoO attacks. Something easier for the player to fall back on since it's right there on your character sheet. With 5e, there aren't nearly as many tactical powers or rules yet, so we found ourselves thinking more outside of the box like we did with AD&D.

Is it just me that noticed this?

 

[Greatwyrm]

Yes and no. I think generally the more rules there are, the more we want to try to do things within them. 5e being less regimented than 4e gives the impression you can color outside the lines. It really all comes down to what the DM will roll with, regardless of what rules you use.

 

[Paraxis]

Stuff like this is great as prep work, or if you can use natural environment to aid your side great.

But in play, most rounds are spent doing the most efficient thing you can to reduce h.p of enemies down to 0 h.p, because death is the worst condition, offense is a great defenses, yada yada.

What I would like to see in the DMG are action zones from Iron Heroes, that you can activate or trigger with a bonus action. That way it has impact on your action economy but doesn't impact damage output tremendously.

So walls you can topple, carts you can shove, stuff like that.

Here is a section of a review of the book Mastering Iron Heroes that explains it better than I can.

Zones are broken into three subsections of their own, condition, event, and action. For the DM that wants to create hyper-realistic e combat scenarios, but lacks the time to create streamlined rules will be happy to see the creation of condition zones. Condition zones create challenges and/or threats to a PC in combat beyond the foe they face. Are your players fighting on a storm tossed ship or are they fighting Demonic Brutes while hanging from a fallen bridge, Temple of Doom style? Mearls has composed the stats and rules for which to generate such a condition. Event zones are similar to condition zones, but only go into effect when an outside source triggers them. For example, your Berserker player just toppled a pillar upon his foes, a great idea until it brings down the entire temple roof. Event zones give the DM the exact conditioners or attack and damage value the falling roof has on everyone involved in the scene. Event zones also provide the foundation for timed effect items within a combat event, such as the Obelisk of Despair, the example item used within Mastering Iron Heroes that requires a Will save every 4 rounds for everyone within range or suffer a -4 to all attack and saves. Action zones allow a DM to create interesting battle settings for his or her players, allowing the combat to be more then character and monster trading blows. Action zones work in a similar fashion to combat stunts as written in Iron Heroes and in a sense they are the same thing. However, action zones are DM created and only go into effect if a character or NPC chooses to use them, such as setting off an avalanche to pummel a marching Orc horde!

I try and add stuff like this to encounters, it changes things up from rooms with a bit of terrain and a few monsters.

 

[The_Gneech]

This kind of thing came up just tonight in my game: the characters finally decided to take on the Redbrands in their hideout. One of them is the former member, so I gave them a map based on the parts of the hideout he'd seen, including the secret tunnel. The players blocked the door from the manor cellars and put caltrops in front of it to block the escape route, then went around and entered through the "back door" and started their assault.

Thus, when Glass-Staff and one of Black Spider's doppelganger lackeys tried to make their escape, they were confronted by a blocked door, and then stepped on caltrops once they got past it! This enabled the party to capture the doppelganger after tracking its bloody footprints, although Glass-Staff still managed to get away.

I can't say for sure if it's an artifact of the system– my group is made up of experienced old grognards and this kind of thing is not unheard of for them– but I do think the system certainly encourages it. By treating the dungeon as a holistic entity instead of each room being a big, set-piece encounter, the whole thing becomes a lot more dynamic. The alarm being raised was a constant threat, the cramped quarters made moving and maneuvering difficult, and so on.

-The Gneech

 

[MacMathan]

Haven't seen it myself yet, in fact 5E has begun to suffer a little bit from "roll-I hit-7 pts damage" for the melee types which is pretty dull. Now in 4e I saw the caltrops and burning areas and such much more often as there were a ton of alchemical items available. Right now 5e is in its infancy so it is to be expected that there are less interesting pre-made toys to play with, I am hoping combats will be as colorful for the melee types as they are in 4e for us. Currently I can't even port over some of my 4e characters without losing a lot of their cool flavor, I am willing to give 5e time to fully develop though.

 

[Uchawi]

5E is so basic you have to stretch to add in any detail, so in that sense it forces you to be creative (add rulings). But I never has a problem being creative in any edition, but a lot of that has to do with the DM versus the game.

 

[Derren]

During the battle, sure enough two guards tried to flee to her and get her, got caught in my trap, and I threw a torch to set them on fire and prevent the cleric from coming.

And are you sure that they also would have tried that if you had not prepared the traps instead of the DM just wanting to reward you?

 

[Sacrosanct]

And are you sure that they also would have tried that if you had not prepared the traps instead of the DM just wanting to reward you?

Yes. Apparently it's even written into the module that way. Originally, I wasn't worried so much about them, as I was about her coming to join the battle. My gaming group is pretty old school (everyone has gamed for 30 or so years), and no one would even think of changing something just to reward a player. It either works, or it doesn't. All NPCs and monsters are ran by the DM as they would logically behave. There are plenty of times where things like that just never get used, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Rhenny]

In our games, the players are using the environment more and more to gain surprise, which is the most powerful combat technique. Even if they have to split the party and send one or more stealthy PCs ahead, hiding and sneaking, they will do it to gain valuable recon or plain old surprise before the enemy can act. Even if 1 or 2 PCs can get an attack in before the foes can act, it makes the encounter much easier.

Also, the split movement rules in 5e allow for PCs to really use terrain in more interesting ways. Wizards in my games will almost always move into position to cast a spell, then move behind a large object or a wall to end their turn - same with other squishies (rogue especially since he also gains the cunning action ability). I think these changes to the rules have done wonders to make encounters more dynamic.

 

[Raith5]

I like powers/skills/feats in my D&D but I largely agree with the OP that I have noticed this, especially at low levels. I am not sure it will hold at higher levels

In the 5e campaign my 1st level party came across some goblins huddling around a fire so we snuck up on them and used the prestidigitation cantrip to drop a flask of oil on them. I dont think we would have done that in a 4e campaign because our encounter powers etc would have been stronger. But I also think higher level 5e PCs would have better options than oil.

I am not sure that terrain is more important in 5e, it was a pretty key part of 4e for instance. But I do think creative play is also boosted by the broad nature of non combat cantrips. I also think the movement away from the focus on the encounter means that PCs are looking for more effective uses of spells etc.