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5E 5e EPIC MONSTER UPDATES


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Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
I was just thinking. Tiamat is the most powerful god now - is this intentional? If so, why?

I seem to recall in 4e lore at least, that Tharizdun is the most powerful and that the gods had to coorperate to defeat him.
 

dave2008

Legend
I was just thinking. Tiamat is the most powerful god now - is this intentional? If so, why?

I seem to recall in 4e lore at least, that Tharizdun is the most powerful and that the gods had to coorperate to defeat him.

Regarding Tiamat: Her power upgrade is simply a result of having her conform to the most recent design philosophy and having her coordinate with the recently completed great wyrm dragons. Having her be able to breath 5x in a single combat makes her attack CR very high. The CR is just were it landed. In the 2nd drafts I will have way to give her a high CR, but lesson her divine (epic) rank.

Regarding Tharizdun: I did quite a bit of research on him when I did his stat block. The only official stat block of him has him at intermediate god level, though he is often discussed as a cosmos ending threat. Personally, I think an intermediate god can be a cosmos ending threat, even if it is not the most powerful god 1v1 - which is really what comparing CR is about. It is more his madness and nihilism that make him a threat. Now, I did take a bit of the 4e idea and provided an "empowered" version of Tharizdun that would be after he acquired part of the Shard of Evil. This made him the most powerful god (until the revised Tiamat) but still not able to take on all the gods in straight up fight.

It is worth noting that in the 4e lore, he abandoned the shard of evil because he was unable to control the demon lords to do his bidding. That suggests to me he was not the most powerful god in 4e either.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
I don't think CR is a good mechanism to represent things like solo vs gang.

The only reasonable way to make one monster (even gods are monsters in D&D) capable of taking on more than a handful of monsters (Not to speak of "all gods") is by absolutes.

Such as a driven rank saying "you're immune to the attacks of every lesser being".

Otherwise Tharizdun would have to be absurd CR. Like 20+ CR higher. And not even a CR 20 hero can take on a world full of CR 1's; that's simply not how 5E math works.
 

SkidAce

Hero
Supporter
It just so happens that I use a Sumerian "Mother of Monsters" version of Tiamat, so I'm cool with this.

Re: One god takes on others?

I kinda just use the CR as a relative to each other scale, and mainly to rank them. And of course when they are in combat versus mortals.

Versus each other?

A. Thats what mortals fighting each other is for.

B. I decide based on common sense and story.
 

dave2008

Legend
I don't think CR is a good mechanism to represent things like solo vs gang.

The only reasonable way to make one monster (even gods are monsters in D&D) capable of taking on more than a handful of monsters (Not to speak of "all gods") is by absolutes.

Such as a driven rank saying "you're immune to the attacks of every lesser being".

Otherwise Tharizdun would have to be absurd CR. Like 20+ CR higher. And not even a CR 20 hero can take on a world full of CR 1's; that's simply not how 5E math works.

Yes, I tried this with one primordial and even though it has a ridiculous amount of HP and can do insane damage, i realized I had to give it a seriously beefed up "Last Word" to make it a threat to a celestial host.
 

dave2008

Legend
It just so happens that I use a Sumerian "Mother of Monsters" version of Tiamat, so I'm cool with this.

I've been leaning that way too. This version is sort-og half way between god & primordial. I was planning on making her a primordial to get back to her mythological roots, but I can't get past the nostalgia of reading through my 1e MM and being mesmorized by her entry. So I came up with something that is more than a god, but less than a primordial.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
I've been leaning that way too. This version is sort-og half way between god & primordial. I was planning on making her a primordial to get back to her mythological roots, but I can't get past the nostalgia of reading through my 1e MM and being mesmorized by her entry. So I came up with something that is more than a god, but less than a primordial.

I never liked her as a god (Bahamut neither). I always saw her as the Ur-dragon - as powerful as a (lesser) god, but still "just a dragon". With the introduction of the primodials, I think that is more fitting (albeit less powerful probably).
 

dave2008

Legend
I never liked her as a god (Bahamut neither). I always saw her as the Ur-dragon - as powerful as a (lesser) god, but still "just a dragon". With the introduction of the primodials, I think that is more fitting (albeit less powerful probably).

Yes, that is basically how dragons were handled in BECMI. The dragon "rulers" were not gods, but they were immortal and had powers similar to gods. As I was updating the dragons i thought about moving Tiamat and Bahamut into the Dragon Hall of Fame and following in the foot steps of BECMI. I will probably do that in the 2nd drafts.
 

dave2008

Legend
I have updated the compiled PDF (now w/ page numbers), you can get it here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1331

Version 13 of the 5e Epic Monster Updates added:

New: Aremag, great wyrm black dragon, great wyrm blue dragon, great wyrm brass dragon, great wyrm bronze dragon, great wyrm copper dragon, great wyrm dragon turtle, great wyrm gold dragon, great wyrm green dragon, great wyrm red dragon, great wyrm silver dragon, great wyrm white dragon, Havarian, Iymrith, Nicol Bolas

Updated:
ancient black dragon, ancient blue dragon, ancient brass dragon, ancient bronze dragon, ancient copper dragon, ancient dragon turtle, ancient gold dragon, ancient green dragon, ancient red dragon, ancient silver dragon, ancient white dragon, Ashardalon, Bahamut, Cyan Bloodbane, Hutijin, Shen, Tiamat, wyrm black dragon, wyrm blue dragon, wyrm brass dragon, wyrm bronze dragon, wyrm copper dragon, wyrm dragon turtle, wyrm gold dragon, wyrm green dragon, wyrm red dragon, wyrm silver dragon, wyrm white dragon
 

SkidAce

Hero
Supporter
I never liked her as a god (Bahamut neither). I always saw her as the Ur-dragon - as powerful as a (lesser) god, but still "just a dragon". With the introduction of the primodials, I think that is more fitting (albeit less powerful probably).

I like my primordials to more eternal and powerful than gods, but less caring of and non-dependent on worshipers.

"Gods" are have advantages and can gain great power from worshipers and philosophical concepts, but are also semi-dependent on them.

But that's just my campaign.
 

dave2008

Legend
I like my primordials to more eternal and powerful than gods, but less caring of and non-dependent on worshipers.

"Gods" are have advantages and can gain great power from worshipers and philosophical concepts, but are also semi-dependent on them.

But that's just my campaign.

That is pretty much how I see it as well.
 





Questions about Charisma bonus modifiers with Asmodeus and Mephistophelese

Questions about Charisma bonus modifiers with Asmodeus and Mephistophelese
When Mephistophelese casts a spell that deals cold damage while on Caina, such as cone of cold(apart from it doing maximum damage)does he add his Charisma modifier to the damage
The reason I ask this is that a sorcerer with the cold elemental affinity would add his charisma bonus to a cold-related spell so the question is when Mephisto casts spells as a wizard he adds his intelligence modifier and when he casts spells innately he adds his charisma modifier. His innate casting is Charisma based(ie sorcerer) and cast at 32 dc and at 8th level
He has a separate wizard spell casting at 30 dc and intelligence based(ie wizard)
and does Asmodeus add his Charisma modifier to the damage done by spells cast from his rod? And does elemental affinity apply to Asmodeus spells like a sorcerer?
 

dave2008

Legend
Questions about Charisma bonus modifiers with Asmodeus and Mephistophelese
When Mephistophelese casts a spell that deals cold damage while on Caina, such as cone of cold(apart from it doing maximum damage)does he add his Charisma modifier to the damage
The reason I ask this is that a sorcerer with the cold elemental affinity would add his charisma bonus to a cold-related spell so the question is when Mephisto casts spells as a wizard he adds his intelligence modifier and when he casts spells innately he adds his charisma modifier. His innate casting is Charisma based(ie sorcerer) and cast at 32 dc and at 8th level
He has a separate wizard spell casting at 30 dc and intelligence based(ie wizard)
and does Asmodeus add his Charisma modifier to the damage done by spells cast from his rod? And does elemental affinity apply to Asmodeus spells like a sorcerer?

As it is written the answer would be no. However, these are first drafts and to streamline the process I made a decision to not worry about bonus damage to spells. In the 2nd drafts I will take this into account and I would definitely add charisma modifier to Mephisto's cold damage for innately cast spells, not sure about his spell slots. I would probably say yes for Asmo's innately cast spells, but not his rod. Though I am not 100% sure on that.
 

I really like the way you have done Mephisto. He's immune to cold and fire. The question is is his hellfire ability charisma or intelligence based? A couple of tweeks in the first edition mephisto had Shapechange once per day and Asmodeus should definitely have mass charm ability to use at will
 

dave2008

Legend
I really like the way you have done Mephisto. He's immune to cold and fire. The question is is his hellfire ability charisma or intelligence based? A couple of tweeks in the first edition mephisto had Shapechange once per day and Asmodeus should definitely have mass charm ability to use at will

I would think his hellfire is Charisma based.

I agree about Asmodeus, I will have to get that added in the next updated.
 

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