D&D 5E 5e EPIC MONSTER UPDATES

[SkidAce]

I still don't like her being an actual god. I get that dragons worship her in some way (and that metallics worship Bahamut), but that imo should be from a "she' the baddest mo-fo around these parts" perspective, not because "oh, she's our holiest". So, more like the BBD at the end of How to Train Your Dragon, and less because of divinity.
Now, her actual power level might be equal to a lesser deity, but that's another story....

This is basically what I think of when referencing Tiamat (fully aware that standard D&D doesnt take her that far).

Tiamat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[S'mon]

For stats, I much prefer stats that high level PCs can interact with. OTOH these days I'm against perma-death for deity level punching bags like Orcus & Tiamat, rather I see their defeat more as a discorporation where it will take them a century or so to reform, but they're not gone forever as long as people (or dragons) still believe in them. So Challenge 30 for Tiamat and other highest-end threats looks about right to me. If a powerful deity needs to be above 30, then better to do a multi-stage boss fight as was done for Shar in one of the 4e organised play adventures - I think my friend @Upper_Krust did similar. Challenge 48 stats seems a bit, er, theory-w*nk, unless you have a whole level 21-40+ PC system to support it.

 

[dave2008]

For stats, I much prefer stats that high level PCs can interact with. OTOH these days I'm against perma-death for deity level punching bags like Orcus & Tiamat, rather I see their defeat more as a discorporation where it will take them a century or so to reform, but they're not gone forever as long as people (or dragons) still believe in them. So Challenge 30 for Tiamat and other highest-end threats looks about right to me. If a powerful deity needs to be above 30, then better to do a multi-stage boss fight as was done for Shar in one of the 4e organised play adventures - I think my friend @Upper_Krust did similar. Challenge 48 stats seems a bit, er, theory-w*nk, unless you have a whole level 21-40+ PC system to support it.

Well that is the intent of my ASCENSION series. To allow PCS to become gods, it is the "I" to 5e's BECM if you will. Therefore, I've also increased the strength of Archfiends, deities, and similar to give these divine characters some Friend and Foes to work with. Also, I just think things like Deities and Demon Lords should be beyond the capabilities of mortals, therefore CR 30 doesn't cut it IMO.

 

[S'mon]

Demon Lords should be beyond the capabilities of mortals

Whereas I definitely prefer the 1e AD&D style "go to the Abyss & kill Lolth" approach to demon lords. Not that she'll stay dead forever, but you can certainly put a crimp in her plans.

Deities, I've moved away from treating them as NPCs at all. They're more like semi-abstract forces. But their manifestations can certainly be discorporated.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Dave and S'mon,

the new Epic Bestiary I am currently working on (hopefully finished sometime around the end of March) floats a happy medium between the two viewpoints you each share. Current 5E is not set up for CR 48 monsters...in the traditional sense. But I think I have found a way to cover both approaches - but I want to keep a lid on the details for another week or two (still tweaking, writing and fixing things). ;-)

 

[dave2008]

Hey Dave and S'mon,

the new Epic Bestiary I am currently working on (hopefully finished sometime around the end of March) floats a happy medium between the two viewpoints you each share. Current 5E is not set up for CR 48 monsters...in the traditional sense. But I think I have found a way to cover both approaches - but I want to keep a lid on the details for another week or two (still tweaking, writing and fixing things). ;-)

Can't wait to see what you came up with. I had something I thought bridged the two, but I am struggling to get it finished at the moment.

My original plan was to have two stat blocks. One "exalted" and then an avatar stat block that was like a typical 5e monster. With the mythic updates in Theros I thought I had a simple way to merge the two (hey just add more mythic "stages"). That does work, but my "Immortal Rules" started to diverge more and more from base 5e and made this idea more difficult. I am trying to find a way, but I may go back to having 2 separate stat blocks.

 

[S'mon]

I've been running a lot of level 20 + Epic Boon 5e. For that I definitely appreciate having a good monster palette of Challenge 25-30 foes. 30 makes a good cap, even if a single Challenge 30 foe may not be a big challenge to an optimised E20 party with prime stats at 30, artifact weapons and a ton of Boons. I'd generally prefer to deal with that through multiple opponents - even having stuff like a really powerful PC duelling Tiamat solo - rather than limitless progression.

 

[dave2008]

I've been running a lot of level 20 + Epic Boon 5e. For that I definitely appreciate having a good monster palette of Challenge 25-30 foes. 30 makes a good cap, even if a single Challenge 30 foe may not be a big challenge to an optimised E20 party with prime stats at 30, artifact weapons and a ton of Boons. I'd generally prefer to deal with that through multiple opponents - even having stuff like a really powerful PC duelling Tiamat solo - rather than limitless progression.

I want to clarify that I am a big fan of what you describe in general. I think the lvl 20 cap + epic boons and supernatural gifts is my favorite method of epic "mortal" PCs for D&D ever. However, I also wanted to create some rules & challenges for PCs who want to be actual deities. That is what ASCENSION is for.

 

[S'mon]

I want to clarify that I am a big fan of what you describe in general. I think the lvl 20 cap + epic boons and supernatural gifts is my favorite method of epic "mortal" PCs for D&D ever. However, I also wanted to create some rules & challenges for PCs who want to be actual deities. That is what ASCENSION is for.

I think that's a reasonable goal - I certainly enjoyed my old deity-PC AD&D game, here's Upper_Krust's PC Thrin Immortality

I think 5e D&D, unlike 3e, is a pretty good ruleset for that goal. The big trick is to not over-complexify high level PCs with excessive bells & whistles. The 5e approach to both Feats & Boons is excellent IMO. And mortal threats should not be trivialised. Generally, I think players want to be MCU Thor going toe-to-toe with Hel, while still interacting meaningfully with the mortal world. I don't think Mentzer's Immortals Set rules got that quite right, he made the Immortals a bit too powerful compared to even level 36 BECM PCs. 1e AD&D Deities & Demigods stats by contrast are very useable.

 

[dave2008]

I think that's a reasonable goal - I certainly enjoyed my old deity-PC AD&D game, here's Upper_Krust's PC Thrin Immortality

Yep, I've seen it before. I found UK when 4e came out and followed him through the end of that edition. I'm glad to see he is going to make some 5e content.

I think 5e D&D, unlike 3e, is a pretty good ruleset for that goal. The big trick is to not over-complexify high level PCs with excessive bells & whistles. The 5e approach to both Feats & Boons is excellent IMO. And mortal threats should not be trivialised. Generally, I think players want to be MCU Thor going toe-to-toe with Hel, while still interacting meaningfully with the mortal world.

I think that is true for most people. To really play gods, the game should be different IMO. That is why....

I don't think Mentzer's Immortals Set rules got that quite right, he made the Immortals a bit too powerful compared to even level 36 BECM PCs. 1e AD&D Deities & Demigods stats by contrast are very useable.

Since Mentzer's Immortals Set was the major inspiration for ASCENSION, it is in a bit of an odd space with regard to 5e. I am constantly wondering how different or more complex it should be compated to basic 5e. I keep moving back and forth on this scale. I actually think having this discussion has helped bring some clarity to my mind in that aspect - thanks!