D&D 5E 5e Fighters, two-weapon fighting and extra attacks
- Thread starter GafferGamgee
- Start date
First, welcome to the boards!
I'm going to give a rules-as-written reading, fully aware that most DMs wouldn't care at all given the way you've tricked out your fighter.
The basics have been covered, and the list from pdegan is perhaps clearest. There are just a few small nuances I'd like to point out:
Technically, there no longer is "off-hand" attacks. That is to say, when you take the attack action, you can use either weapon in either hand. If you've only used one weapon in the attack action, the bonus attack can be made with the other hand.
This becomes relevant after level 5 if there are magical properties on different weapons (let's say "flame" and "frost", both being non-heavy, since you have the feat; light if you didn't; we could equally say piercing and bludgeoning or whatever).
With extra attack, Attack action lets you attack twice. It can be with flame, or frost, or one with each.
If both those attacks are with a single weapon (e.g. flame), you meet the criteria for two weapon fighting (which requires the attack action to use only one hand and one weapon), using frost.
If you then use Actionsurge, it can be with either flame or frost (but no bonus action, since you've attacked that way already).
So a level 5 TWF fighter using action surge could make
* 2 fire 1 frost 2 fire attacks
* 2 fire 1 frost 1 fire 1 frost
* 2 fire 2 frost [bonus and the first attack of the surge] 1 fire
* 2 fire 3 frost
* 1 fire 1 frost 2 fire 1 frost [saving the bonus until the end, riding the surge]
* 1 fire 3 frost 1 fire [bonus at end]
* 4 fire 1 frost [bonus at end]
* 1 fire 1 frost 1 fire 1 frost [but no bonus action, since no attack action used only one weapon]
* 3 fire 1 frost [no bonus]
(or any of the above nine possibilities, swapping fire and frost and vice versa).
But you can't make:
* 1 fire 2 frost 1 fire 1 frost
* 1 fire 2 frost 2 fire
* 5 fire
* 3 fire 2 frost
* 1 fire 1 frost 1 fire 1 frost 1 fire.
(or again any of these swapping fire for frost, swapping fire for frost)
Is that all the permutations? I think so.
Ultimately, though, You're pretty flexible, and have a lot of options, and most tables won't care one way or another.
To this, I would suggest that not everyone cares about DPR, and that it is perfectly possible to enjoy D&D without maximizing damage.
DPR in this case, though, is positively misleading -- TWF gives you flexibility, and the ability to move onto additional targets as you wish after each roll of the die, which means that the damage you are doing is much more efficiently applied than it would be with two great weapon attacks.
Both are completely legitimate approaches, but it is wrong to say that falling behind in average damage means anything in actual play: the type of opponents you are facing, their number, and whether you have magic weapons (and whether they are light, or heavy), and whether they do different types of damage, are all relevant variables that simply cannot be controlled by theorizing alone.
Stick with your character, and have fun.
I'm going to give a rules-as-written reading, fully aware that most DMs wouldn't care at all given the way you've tricked out your fighter.
The basics have been covered, and the list from pdegan is perhaps clearest. There are just a few small nuances I'd like to point out:
Technically, there no longer is "off-hand" attacks. That is to say, when you take the attack action, you can use either weapon in either hand. If you've only used one weapon in the attack action, the bonus attack can be made with the other hand.
This becomes relevant after level 5 if there are magical properties on different weapons (let's say "flame" and "frost", both being non-heavy, since you have the feat; light if you didn't; we could equally say piercing and bludgeoning or whatever).
With extra attack, Attack action lets you attack twice. It can be with flame, or frost, or one with each.
If both those attacks are with a single weapon (e.g. flame), you meet the criteria for two weapon fighting (which requires the attack action to use only one hand and one weapon), using frost.
If you then use Actionsurge, it can be with either flame or frost (but no bonus action, since you've attacked that way already).
So a level 5 TWF fighter using action surge could make
* 2 fire 1 frost 2 fire attacks
* 2 fire 1 frost 1 fire 1 frost
* 2 fire 2 frost [bonus and the first attack of the surge] 1 fire
* 2 fire 3 frost
* 1 fire 1 frost 2 fire 1 frost [saving the bonus until the end, riding the surge]
* 1 fire 3 frost 1 fire [bonus at end]
* 4 fire 1 frost [bonus at end]
* 1 fire 1 frost 1 fire 1 frost [but no bonus action, since no attack action used only one weapon]
* 3 fire 1 frost [no bonus]
(or any of the above nine possibilities, swapping fire and frost and vice versa).
But you can't make:
* 1 fire 2 frost 1 fire 1 frost
* 1 fire 2 frost 2 fire
* 5 fire
* 3 fire 2 frost
* 1 fire 1 frost 1 fire 1 frost 1 fire.
(or again any of these swapping fire for frost, swapping fire for frost)
Is that all the permutations? I think so.
Ultimately, though, You're pretty flexible, and have a lot of options, and most tables won't care one way or another.
To this, I would suggest that not everyone cares about DPR, and that it is perfectly possible to enjoy D&D without maximizing damage.
DPR in this case, though, is positively misleading -- TWF gives you flexibility, and the ability to move onto additional targets as you wish after each roll of the die, which means that the damage you are doing is much more efficiently applied than it would be with two great weapon attacks.
Both are completely legitimate approaches, but it is wrong to say that falling behind in average damage means anything in actual play: the type of opponents you are facing, their number, and whether you have magic weapons (and whether they are light, or heavy), and whether they do different types of damage, are all relevant variables that simply cannot be controlled by theorizing alone.
Stick with your character, and have fun.
Gnashtooth
First Post
I just want to put in that I love polearm master with my gnoll ranger, because the extra butt end attack is like I get a dagger with proficiency on the off hand.
Good job explaining a complicated rule, everyone. I know every one of us at my table screwed that up and was doing silly damage from multiple bonus attacks in the recent past.
Good job explaining a complicated rule, everyone. I know every one of us at my table screwed that up and was doing silly damage from multiple bonus attacks in the recent past.
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Xeviat
Dungeon Mistress, she/her
Having +1 attack to spread matters less once you have 2, 3, or 4 base attacks, though. If twfing were slightly behind gwfing, I'd buy the versatility explaination. But it's not. It starts ahead and quickly falls, eventually falling below duelist. I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where having 5 attacks at almost half strength is better than having 4.
CapnZapp
Legend
This needs to be clarified:
At level 1, you only have one attack. Which hand or weapon you use doesn't matter - no matter your choice, you get to add your modifier to damage.
At level 5, Extra Attack grants you two attacks. Which hand or weapon still does not matter - you could make two right-hand attacks, two left-hand attacks or one with each hand. Likewise you could use either weapon or both. You still get to add your modifier to the damage of both attacks.
Now, the only time when it matters which hands/weapons you're using is if you want to claim the juicy bonus attack through Two-Weapon Fighting.
At level 1, you must make the bonus attack with the other hand, and it must hold a different weapon. So if you use your right hand scimitar for your regular attack, you must use your left hand handaxe for your bonus attack. And vice versa.
At level 5, this does not change. If you make both regular attacks using the handaxe in your right hand you can and must use the scimitar in your left hand for the bonus attack. And vice versa.
Now we get to it:
But if you make one attack with the handaxe in your right hand and then (for whatever reason) switch to holding the handaxe in your left hand, you no longer have an "other hand" to use for the bonus attack, and so you become ineligible for two-weapon fighting.
Or, if you make the first attack with the handaxe and the second with the scimitar (regardless of hands) you no longer have a "different weapon" to use for the bonus attack, and so you again become ineligible for two-weapon fighting.
(The second of these two latest scenarios could happen in real play, the first not so much.)
---
The long and short of all of this is that even though the game doesn't care about handedness and allows you to mix hands and weapons freely during your regular attacks, this has almost zero impact on practical play, since you would so very often want the bonus attack from TWF (why else carry two weapons?) that you would quickly settle into do all regular attacks with one hand holding the first weapon, then the bonus attack with the other hand holding the second weapon (where the first weapon is your best weapon in any given circumstance).
Hope that helps.
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Zaruthustran
The tingling means it’s working!
That's an interesting take, CapnZapp. But I don't think it's as restrictive as you say. I disagree with your conclusion that mixing weapons invalidates TWF.
Say you're a level 5 fighter with a handaxe in one hand, and a dagger in the other.
You take the Attack action. As a level 5 fighter with Extra Attack, "you can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action."
In this example you attack once with the handaxe, and once with the dagger.
Now it's time for the Bonus Action. You choose to attack with the dagger. Broken down: "When you take the attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand--" THIS CRITERIA IS MET ABOVE, WHEN YOU TOOK THE ATTACK ACTION AND ATTACKED WITH THE HANDAXE, "you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand." THIS CRITERIA IS MET ABOVE; THE DAGGER IS A DIFFERENT LIGHT MELEE WEAPON THAN THE HANDAXE, AND IS HELD IN THE OTHER HAND.
You could just as validly chosen to make that bonus attack with the handaxe:
Test:
Did you take the attack action and make an attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand? Yes, with the dagger.
Do you have a different light melee weapon held in the other hand? Yes, the handaxe.
Both criteria are satisfied, so go ahead with the bonus attack. The fact that you used your attack action to attack with both the dagger and the handaxe does not impact your ability to use your bonus action from TWF to attack with either one.
PHB said:
Say you're a level 5 fighter with a handaxe in one hand, and a dagger in the other.
You take the Attack action. As a level 5 fighter with Extra Attack, "you can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action."
In this example you attack once with the handaxe, and once with the dagger.
Now it's time for the Bonus Action. You choose to attack with the dagger. Broken down: "When you take the attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand--" THIS CRITERIA IS MET ABOVE, WHEN YOU TOOK THE ATTACK ACTION AND ATTACKED WITH THE HANDAXE, "you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand." THIS CRITERIA IS MET ABOVE; THE DAGGER IS A DIFFERENT LIGHT MELEE WEAPON THAN THE HANDAXE, AND IS HELD IN THE OTHER HAND.
You could just as validly chosen to make that bonus attack with the handaxe:
Test:
Did you take the attack action and make an attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand? Yes, with the dagger.
Do you have a different light melee weapon held in the other hand? Yes, the handaxe.
Both criteria are satisfied, so go ahead with the bonus attack. The fact that you used your attack action to attack with both the dagger and the handaxe does not impact your ability to use your bonus action from TWF to attack with either one.
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good stuff here, thanks
Bah, no addional bonus attack when fighting with 2 weapon and action surging. Been doing that wrong. OK so why? Got confused when the text says "and possible bonus action" Why even have that in the description. Not like it comes up that often, its a once per rest thing (monks can flurry as many times as they have ki, one per level)
Bah, no addional bonus attack when fighting with 2 weapon and action surging. Been doing that wrong. OK so why? Got confused when the text says "and possible bonus action" Why even have that in the description. Not like it comes up that often, its a once per rest thing (monks can flurry as many times as they have ki, one per level)
GX.Sigma
Adventurer
I agree with this interpretation. If [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]'s interpretation were true, a 20th-level fighter with two weapons would have to attack four times with one weapon, and only once with the other. I can't imagine that's what the designers intended.
Let's look at the way it's worded:
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand..."
If they wanted you to only use one weapon in the Attack action, it would be worded like this:
"When you take the Attack action and attack only with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand..."
psychophipps
Explorer
I'm curious, but nobody seems to like the Dual Wielder feat despite it giving you a non-light secondary weapon with a d8 + STR damage. I think the idea of a Battle Axe in one hand and a Warhammer in the other is kinda badass...
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